TheViper & Nili state El Dorado needs to be nerfed to +30HP next, say it is still ridiculous upgrade

[MatCauthon3]

@Parthnan

but the fact remains that both TheViper and Nili certainly did not call for Supplies to be returned to the Mayans when stating El dorado HP nerf

they also didn’t call for them to lose both supplies and lose health on El Dorado. that’s merely you projecting.

[teutonictanks]

Yeah what a nice “haha lol see, see i’m right topic”. Just because Viper said that El Dorado should be reduced to +30 HP, it doesnt mean this is 100% right or the unspoken final truth. Reducing the effect of El dorado makes no sence what so ever, mayans already arent the best civ in a post imp situation, where the extra HP matters the most. A gold cost increase is indeed understandable, since this nerfs their early imp and also makes a transition a bit harder, but much more than that would just be wrong. The introduction of supplies already nerfed eagles in general, plums also got nerfed some patches ago. Just think about it, a civ like viet with rattans/supplies champs is now considered a decent counter to mayans, this was unthinkable before. I dont see why mayans should be dead nerfed, they are definetly balanced.

[MatCauthon3]

https://aoestats.io/civ/Mayans/RM_1v1/1650+
you’re not wrong. the winrate literally falls off a cliff post 30 minutes.

@teutonictanks

A gold cost increase is indeed understandable

i don’t mind that at all. provided they are still too strong after this patch that is, which i don’t think will happen.

[Parthnan]

@teutonictanks

The introduction of supplies already nerfed eagles in general, plums also got nerfed some patches ago. Just think about it, a civ like viet with rattans/supplies champs is now considered a decent counter to mayans, this was unthinkable before. I dont see why mayans should be dead nerfed, they are definetly balanced

I can understand this sentiment too, but the fact remains that both TheViper and Nili certainly did not call for Supplies to be returned to the Mayans when stating their El dorado HP nerf

[MatCauthon3]

@Parthnan

I can understand this sentiment too, but the fact remains that both TheViper and Nili certainly did not call for Supplies to be returned to the Mayans when stating their El dorado HP nerf

they also didn’t call for them to lose supplies and lose health on eagle warriors. and if they did, they are being contradictory.

Still waiting for you to tell us how a Mayans player without Supplies and with 90 health EW would win against Goths.

[teutonictanks]

??? Did you actually read what I wrote? Other civs profit FROM supplies to COUNTER eagles easier. Who on earth goes for mayan 2handed longswords?

[Parthnan]

@MatCauthon3

Still waiting for you to tell us how a Mayans player without Supplies and with 90 health EW would win against Goths.

The specific Mayan vs Goth matchup not what this topic is about, really, I’ll tell you in a PM later or you open a topic about how the Mayans are helpless vs Goths

[Parthnan]

@teutonictanks

??? Did you actually read what I wrote? Other civs profit FROM supplies to COUNTER eagles easier. Who on earth goes for mayan 2handed longswords?

@teutonictanks Again I shall say, I get this, I can see where you’re coming from.
But we cannot ignore the fact that both TheViper and Nili certainly did not call for Supplies to be returned to the Mayans when stating El dorado HP nerf

[MatCauthon3]

@Parthnan

The specific Mayan vs Goth matchup not what this topic is about, really, I’ll tell you in a PM later or you open a topic about how the Mayans are helpless vs Goths

except it pertains to the topic at hand. so no, i don’t think i will open a topic, because the fact is, that mayans arent getting both supplies removed, and eagles nerfed to 90 hp.

@Parthnan

But we cannot ignore the fact that both TheViper and Nili certainly did not call for Supplies to be returned to the Mayans when stating El dorado HP nerf

you keep saying this but nothing they said confirms they believe mayans should lose both supplies and 10 hp on their eagles.

literally NOTHING.

[teutonictanks]

Stop fanboying so hard seriously, instead of giving a proper answer to my argument you keep hiding behind Viper and Nili.

[MatCauthon3]

@teutonictanks

Stop fanboying so hard seriously, instead of giving a proper answer to my argument you keep hiding behind Viper and Nili.

the funny thing is, neither of them said “yeah, Mayans should lose BOTH supplies and 10 HP on their eagles”.

that is merely parthnan projecting hard.

[Parthnan]

@teutonictanks

Stop fanboying so hard seriously, instead of giving a proper answer to my argument you keep hiding behind Viper and Nili.

What? From where you get these ideas?
I am simply stating what Viper has said thats all
I am not fanboying, just notifying you of what has happened and why their opinions hold weight

If in few years theViper loses his status as PRO, I wont quote him and start discussions like this
It’s about the skill, experience and game Knowledge

[MatCauthon3]

@Parthnan

I am simply stating what Viper has said thats all

show me exactly where viper said that mayans should lose both supplies and 10 hp on their eagles.
he made two statements, in isolation of each other. nothing more.

@Parthnan

I am not fanboying

you’re literally not actually using anything to argue except “Viper and Nili said”. you have not presented facts. you have said nothing at all about how a Mayans player should win against a goths player post both nerfs, you just keep saying “well viper/nili said”. that is fanboying.
the only counter argument i have seen you use is “Viper or Nili said”.

[Parthnan]

@MatCauthon3

you have not presented facts.

You know very well I did make a thread months ago about why El dorado should be +30 not +40, and there i presented many facts and arguments of my own

But this topic is different, this is about the opinions of the good and top players and discussion based on that not based on my judgements.

[MatCauthon3]

@Parthnan

You know very well I did make a thread months ago about why El dorado should be +30 not +40

before they just got nerfed, which means the equation has changed. nerfing el dorado when they have supplies is a heck of a lot different then nerfing el dorado when they DON’T have supplies.

@Parthnan

But this topic is different, this is about the opinions of the good and top players and discussion based on that not based on my judgements.

but there is no discussion.
we are presenting you with problems to this and you keep going “But viper and nili said”.

so here are problems with nerfing eagles health again for you.

1. they are already weak against goths and other infantry centrist civs, and will only get worse.
2. they have a weak late game as is.
3. they just got nerfed twice, and we don’t know the impacts those nerfs will have yet.

[teutonictanks]

Come man, just the fact that the whole topic is based purely on an opinion of Viper, an opinion, a simple 10 second statement, without any arguments or proper reasoning why mayans should be nerfed in post imp as well as in early imp. You deal with this statement as if it’s the final truth, without reasoning whatsoever, hiding behind someone very experienced. This looks like fanboying to me, i’m afraid. Giving no real reasoning and distort facts is the first step into lies and fakenews.

[Parthnan]

@teutonictanks

This looks like fanboying to me, i’m afraid. Giving no real reasoning and distort facts is the first step into lies and fakenews.

OK fine, I am a fanboy of Viper, not only do I refuse to but I also can’t give coherent reasoning for any balance changes, and I distort facts and am a categorical liar who spreads fake news all the time and I am a loser who sucks

@MatCauthon3

Get lost.

While MatCauthon is amazingly logical in his arguments and must be listened to for every balance change.

Now can you get to Discussion on the actual changes and these 5 questions

@Parthnan

Question 1: How did TheViper contradict himself here? It is not a contradiction if you ask me or him, as we stand by our stance.

Question 2: How are you so sure that TheViper forgot Mayans lost Supplies when he said “El Dorado from +40 to +30HP”, as you say he said them in isolation.

Question 3: Can you, @JonOli12 and @WhiteMagick4 not think of the possibility that he legitimately does want them to have 90HP EEW and no supplies vs Goths and all other civs?

Question 4: Can all of you not think that TheViper (and Nili) want the Mayans to remain weak vs Goths, and have not much trouble with them losing Supplies and 10 HP on eagles?

Question 5: How are you so sure that this is a mistake by TheViper on balancing, as most of his analysis are usually true with only the few mistakes being widely publicized.
I am a regular Viper watcher I know how accurate he really is.

[MatCauthon3]

@Parthnan

Now can you get to Discussion on the actual changes and these 5 questions

those questions were already answered. funny though, you keep refusing to answer other peoples questions.

@MatCauthon3

@Parthnan

Question 1: How did TheViper contradict himself here? It is not a contradiction if you ask me or him, as we stand by our stance.

Because he literally said “Mayans will struggle big time against goths now”, followed up immedially by (in your mind) suggesting YET ANOTHER NERF that would make them struggle against Goths EVEN MORE.

@Parthnan

Question 2: How are you so sure that TheViper forgot Mayans lost Supplies when he said “El Dorado from +40 to +30HP”, as you say he said them in isolation.

im not suggesting he did, i’m asking how you know he was still thinking about it. but you know what lends credence to my argument? why would viper admit that supplies would make them struggle big time agianst goths, and then immediately suggest another nerf to make things worse?

@Parthnan

Question 3: Can you, @JonOli12 and @WhiteMagick4 not think of the possibility that he legitimately does want them to have 90HP EEW and no supplies vs Goths and all other civs?

i think it wouldn’t be a very smart change overall. there is no reason a civ that already struggles against goths, would need two more nerfs against them.

@Parthnan

Question 4: Can all of you not think that TheViper (and Nili) want the Mayans to remain weak vs Goths, and have not much trouble with them losing Supplies and 10 HP on eagles?

they are already weak against goths, why would they need to be made weaker?

@Parthnan

Question 5: How are you so sure that this is a mistake by TheViper on balancing, as most of his analysis are usually true with only the few mistakes being widely publicized.

im not saying its a mistake, i’m saying that both nerfs would be a mistake. one or the other? sure. both? mayans might as well GG the moment they see Goths opponent.

@Parthnan

I am a regular Viper watcher I know how accurate he really is.

and yet he is human, makes mistakes (he even made mistakes in the video).

so yeah. i firmly believe that Viper wasn’t thinking about the Supplies Change when he made the El Dorado comments, because it would make ZERO SENSE for him to acknowledge that Mayans are ALREADY BAD vs goths, and then say “we should nerf them not once, but TWICE vs Goths”.

@WoodsierCorn696

Not all match ups can be 50%-50%. So why comparing against just those two civs only?

Because were not. the fact is that Mayans just got nerfed, and should be in a good spot post patch (not borderline OP anymore, but still a decent civ. but changing the El Dorado nerf to 30 health would completely trash them against the civ they are already hugely disadvantaged against.

let me put it another way
pre patch - mayans slightly too strong, but weak to goths.
post patch - mayans good, weaker against goths.
Parthnan patch (lose supplies and -10 EEW health) - mayans good, might as well instant gg to goths.

even matchups that are advantageous to certain civs (Goths vs other infantry civs (the goths get wrecked), Lithuanians vs Teutons and similar Civs (Lithuanians advantage), etc, at least hte opponents have a fighting chance.

@Parthnan

While MatCauthon is amazingly logical in his arguments and must be listened to for every balance change.

funny because i’ve actually been using arguments and logic, while you’ve been using “Viper and Nili said”

[Parthnan]

I heard you I am asking TeutonicTanks and other people, who wont scroll back there

[MatCauthon3]

@Parthnan

I heard you I am asking TeutonicTanks and other people, who wont scroll back there

let me ask you this. if you won’t even answer other peoples questions, why should they feel obligated to answer yours?