- He didnt contradict himself, because he just stated a short opinion, but left out decent reasoning, thats why the value of a statment without reasoning is always limited. Also keep in mind how often Viper said “mayans are not the best in post imp”, this is not only based on viper but a very well known fact, that kinda everyone of top 100 gonna support, even at lower levels you can very well experince, that mayans fall of in late imp vs late imp UUs, BBT, mass siege, paladins etc.
- Supplies for mayans is nearly completly irrelevant, only vs goths it makes sence to go 2handed swords, but thats a civ matchup where mayans are supposed to be weak. Who cares about supplies for mayans honestly.
- its just a simple statement, not thought until the end and also not fully coherent with what he says else “mayans are not the best in post imp”.
- The nerf vs goths was taking away supplies, thats already enough of a nerf. Its fine that they’re weak vs goths.
- Stated it several times already, mayans post imp is not the best, a HP nerf on eldorado nerfs both, early imp and late imp, thats why it’s not well thought and makes no sence.
TheViper & Nili state El Dorado needs to be nerfed to +30HP next, say it is still ridiculous upgrade
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my concern is that now that supplies is gone, if they nerf El Dorado down to 30, an already bad matchup for Mayans would become…well…might as well not even waste your time.
look. i understand civs having bad match-ups, it happens. (Teutons vs Lithuanians anyone?) its expected. but even in bad match-ups, you should have a fighting chance. if Mayans lost Supplies and ED got nerfed to 30 health, Mayans might as well not even try against goths.
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No please don’t nerf mayans anymore
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You can’t decide the fate of the UT El Dorado, solely based on the Mayans vs Goths match-up.
If that UT is too OP in the other 33 match-ups, it needs to be nerfed, and something else needs to be done about the Goths match-up (like bringing supplies back or something else of that caliber). That’s the right way of thinking about the issue.
Now, what we need to discuss, is whether El Dorado (+66% HP aka +40HP, to Eagle Warriors), is OP or not on the 33 other match-ups. If yes, then a nerf from +40hp to +30hp is fair, and something else will be done for the Goths match-up. If not, El Dorado stays at +40hp.
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Your reasoning is ridiculous. Viper surely won’t ask the dev to do anything on his stream as he has direct contact to them through discord. Also, he hasn’t even called for the ban on the cheater asking the devs. Does it mean that he wants the cheaters to go unpunished? Obviously no.
You don’t need proof for a unit that hasn’t been changed. It is not the same case of the elephant archers that were buffed. What is 20 secs gonna really gonna do? It will help only in those rare cases that you have 1 Castle that is being trebbed down but, even there, you can repair until the tech is finished.
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the point is that if you read the thread when it was first posted, the OP said and i qoute “The Viper Offically Calls for El Dorado nerf from +40HP to +30HP next”.
which wasn’t the truth at all, the viper merely gave his own opinion. there was no official submission of him asking for El Dorado to be nerfed to 30 health. he was merely stating what he thought of the nerf.
obviously. but that doesn’t mean that the OP gets to go saying Viper said something he didn’t.
the statement was made in reference to the Elephant Archer thread, where Parthnan said that he had PROOF that the Elephant Archer was still crap, despite the changes too it. the “proof” was a 10 second reaction from Hera reading the patch notes, which in no way constitutes actual proof. proof requires testing of a unit, which Hera didn’t conduct. as a matter of a fact, a few hours later Hera lost to Viper who closed out the game by making Elephant Archers.
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Ah ok, so things were changed.
Still what you wrote now in context isn’t correct.
That game was already GG for hera in feudal age.
this is very much true, but what would happen to Mayans in that matchup if they removed both supplies and nerfed El Dorado to 30 health?
this game definitely has hard counter civ wins, but even in those matchups, the civ at the disadvantage at least still has a chance. this isn’t the case at all if you BOTH take away supplies and nerf El Dorado.
Mayans got two nerfs in the recent patch. they lost supplies and El Dorado was made longer.
but let me run some numbers by you.
between the last two patches (not the current one) the Mayans played approximately 1000 games, winning no more then 51.5% of them, at the highest level of play.
do you consider 51.5% winrate maximum excessive?
and if you read my posts, you’d see i was never against nerfing El Dorado further, you would see i am against nerfing El Dorado further without giving Mayans something to have a fighting edge against goths.
you can see here where i point out how that the stipulation is “LOSING SUPPLIES”
and i further back that up with my claim made here.
Mayans were 51.5% winrate maximum between the last two patches, pre removal of supplies, and El Dorado research time nerf.
thats because the OP editted his original post 13 times between posting it and now.
and viper has tested the EA since then, with his results being the unit is actually pretty decent, it won’t see pro level play much, but what elephant uu does?
outside of that? perfectly viable and a great late game Indian addition.
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Exactly, El dorado is the only cliff Mayans can hold on in Mid-imp basically. And its super interesting that Mayans have basically the strongest eagles in post-imp, at least in an eagle v eagle fight. And its not that bad at all since aztecs have solutions to face el-dorado eagles with their FU champs or their Jaguars. One of the reason why Mayans v Aztecs are one of the clearest things in post-imp. And there are a lot of champion civs out there. Yeah ofc the pure number of 40 HP is scary but you never can neglect the context of the upgrade in which its stands for the individual civ.
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Aren’t you forgetting about one of Mayan’s strongest weapons, AKA Elite Plumed Archers, AKA the best foot archers in the game?
There is also the fact that Mayans have longer lasting ressources AND cheaper full-upgraded arbalests (-30% cost in Imp).
To be frank, I don’t think El Dorado is the only thing going for Mayans in Imp and late game. However, I’m not sure yet whether it should be nerfed or not. (in terms of cost and/or HP, I don’t consider + 20 sec research time to be a significant nerf).
When you think about it, +66% HP is pretty huge. As said before, even if it is reduced to +50% hp (+30 hp instead of +40), they’d still most likely be the best eagles in the game.
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If you look at mayan winrates they actually fall off quite sharply in the late imperial age.
They arent sitting at an overbearing winrate at any level of play at all, with the highest winratd being 51.5% at 1650+ elo.
And that was pre nerfs.
Which thry need, seeing as without supplies the eagle is their only melee power unit left for fighting against high pierce armor units
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Longbow is better, Rattan Archer and Elephant Archer beat Plumes cost-effectively.
You can say Plumes are the best Archer in an offensive role, but they are not the best overrall Archers in the game for a long time now.
There are ways of fixing the Mayans vs Goths match-ups without touching the other match-ups.
Two examples :
• give Plumed Archers a bonus damage to huskarls (the already present +2 bonus damage to infantry for Elites Plumes already allow them to deal fairly ok with Huskarls when massed, but you could have an additionnal +2 dmg against huskarl for example)
• tweak El Dorado so that it gives the Mayan Eagles some bonus damage to Huskarls
With some creativity, I’m sure we can come up with similar tweaks to help Mayans against Goths without unbalancing the other match-ups.
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They’d have to give huskarls a new armor class for that too happen.
And same thing here.
Which involves creating an entirely new armor class.
Just so you can nerf eagles further.
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You have to look at the wider picture. I’m not talking about a 1v1 of unit situation.
Plumed archers are much more versatile than all the archers you cited. They have more mobility than all of these. They are tankier than Longbows and Rattans. They fire faster than Rattans. They have +2 bonus damage against infantry.
Of course, Rattans will beat Plumes in 1v1 because they are a direct counter with huge pierce armor. But that’s not the point. In most situations in the game, Rattans will be weaker and less cost-efficient. The only time they are better is when facing other archers
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Of course plumes are cost efficient. Mayans litdrally have two useful non counter Units. The plume and the eagle.
Other then that they have pikes and skirms. Thats all they have to work with.
Sorry. Forgot archer line. 5 units.
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Archers in post-imp are never good, because you can be easily denied by siege rams and especially plumed archers will run out if you lose your castle production. And even longbows die horribly to a civ pushing with siegerams to take down castles. So having a melee option is important.
And yes you are right, Mayan eagles with 90 HP would still beat Aztecs eagles by one strike but you have to consider also that Aztec eagles are produced faster by now 10% and 1.1 vs 1 mass makes more damage than the one strike in the 1v1 matchup.
Well, throwing around with bonus damage against super specific units is certainly not the way to keep the game understandable.
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Those are just ideas among others.
But clearly, choosing the design of El Dorado just according to the Goths match-up is a wrong way of looking at the issue.
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especially when it requires literally creating a new armor class just for one unit
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