TheViper & Nili state El Dorado needs to be nerfed to +30HP next, say it is still ridiculous upgrade

True, and they are the better Archer for offensive purposes, but not the best overall Archer like they used to be in Conquerors, anymore.

Ethiopian Arbs can actually beat Plumes nowadays, by virtue of faster attacks and ease of massing.

Plumes are also classified as anti-Infantry Archers, but Slingers and basic FU HCs do it better than them by a wide margin too.

This does not make Plumes bad, but unless they had a huge buff to their bonus vs Infantry, I do not think they would stand up to the easy to mass and afford Huskarls.

And you’ll notice I already agreed with that. But as it stands you can’t nerf el dorado without giving mayans something.

Also, I’d like to know why you think mayans need another nerf.

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Again you are missing the point. I am talking about versatility, you are talking about a very specific situation : archers vs archers. Plumes will be better than Ethiopian archers in most situations in the game. The fact that they are tankier and move faster is the main reason for this.

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As I said, I don’t know whether Mayans need another nerf or not. My point was only that, IF they do need one in 33 match-ups, you can’t avoid it just because of the Mayans vs Goths match-up. As you say, something other needs to be done there. El Dorado is not the specific answer for the Mayans vs Goths match-up because it also impacts greatly all the other match-ups.

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And youll see i already agree with you on not balancing a tech around 1 matchup. I said that two days ago.

Yeah in theory you could do as you said and give plumes or eagles bonus damage against huskarls but this has 2 problems.

  1. it pigeonholes them into one of those two units against huskarls. (Which thry are already pigeon holed as is, but meh, no reason to dbl down)
  2. it requires creating a new armor class specifically for huskarls.
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I don’t think archers are never good in post-imp.
Full upgraded arbalests will always have their place in late game. They have great DPS against a lot of units, including infantry, camels, cavalry with low low to mid pierce armor, villagers, etc.
Just because they can’t damage siege rams doesn’t make them useless.

Having a melee option is important yes. But how does nerfing El Dorado removes the melee option of Mayans? I mean, even without El Dorado, elite eagle warriors are great in a lot of situations. They make mince meat of siege rams and are still very efficient raiders. Hving Eldorado give them 30 hp instead of 40 hp would still make them the best eagles in the game. I don’t see how that’s removing their melee option?

Also, something you forgot to mention is that one of Mayans’ best answer to Aztec Eagles in late game is actually Elite Plumed archers. They do fairly well against eagles. That being said, El dorado Eagles would still do faily well too.

Does that mean they need a nerf? I didn’t say that. I just say that it wouldn’t be as catastrophic as it seems to be argued here, if they did.

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Why are you pushing the issue so hard? Mayans literally just got their only other trash/huskarl/other eagle counter nerfed, and the civ falls off hard in the late game.
So why the push to further nerf it?
You can say they have the best eagles, and this is true, but they also have the worst swordsman line.

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Exactly, E Plumes are borderline OP with not only as much as 65 HP but also the +2 bonus vs all infantry

I get where you’re coming from. I personally think that removing Supplies from Mayans was not the best move. I can’t think of a match-up other than Goths where they would use swordmen anyways, unless I’m mistaken? And that match up was already negative.

They should give supplies back to Mayans for sure.

As for the rest, I don’t know whether El Dorado HP needs to be nerfed or not. Or if the cost should be upped or not. Many people seem to think they should. I’m not against it and not for it either. I think Mayans would still be a top tier civ even if El Dorado went from +40 hp to +30 hp.

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Yes that whole 3 damage pure shot against eagles is sure going to eat them up. Oh wait, incan eagles take 1 damage per shot.

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Nope, not by a longshot. This is not AoC anymore.

fellow meso civs as 2h sword actually does decent against eagles.

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Strong for sure, but not as bad as thry used to be. Between new unique units, more pierce armor on other units, etc…

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If both players are economically balanced in the game, Elite Plumes can actually trade favourably vs Eagles when massed enough, in a frontal fight with micro.
The advantage of Eagles is that they can avoid a frontal fight and raid the economy from multiple angles, but if the Mayan players defends well enough, he’ll have better gold economy in the long term as he will be able to keep his plumes alive while the aztec player wastes his eagles. If he is not able to defend against Eagle raids, the Aztec will have the upper hand.

What do you mean by Incan eagles only taking 1 damage per shot? Bonus damage is pure dmg so they will take at least the 2 bonus damage so it should be 2 or 3 damage per shot

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Good luck massing them compared to eagles though.
One requires a barracks and the other a castle.

You mean excellent play is rewarding? No issues with that.

False. Bonus damage can still be mitigated by armor.

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You seem to be very confident about everything you’re saying.

Well, hate to break it to you, but I just did the test. Post imperial Incan Elite Egale warriors take 2 damage per shot from Mayan Elite Plumed archers, not 1.

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Which still isn’t full damage though. Shouldn’t thry be taking 3 in that case? Because notmal damage can never be less then 1? Either way, fact is that if you hage more plumes then he has eagles he’s already screwed up.

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I did say “either 2 or 3 damage”.
You were confident about 1 damage.
But that’s getting a bit off topic, I’ll stop for now and see what other people have to say.

Edit: what I’m guessing is that the “normal” damage can never be less than 1, when there are no bonuses. But it could actually be zero when there are bonus damages, and only the bonus damages are applied. I don’t know if that’s how it works, but it would make sense.

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Most people exited this topic 2 days ago.

You were right. My formula i have written down has a small error in it!

do you even know how bonus damage works? :rofl: