Things that need buff and nerf and things that NOT need buffs and nerfs

There’s already a lot of discussions wanting Buffing things that are fine (Cough, Cough Bloodlines for Byzantines and more…) as well nerfing things taht are completely balanced.
Gonna Highlight some:

  • For the love of God that Byzantines DON’T need Bloodlines, Overall Byzantines are compleetly fine (I can recall Nicov suprised with the Byzantines buff at Aoezone), their tech tree is broad, they are a defensive civ, not offensive, and any buff to them (even a small eco one) led to a nerf for either the cheaper advance to imperial age or taking away more form the tech tree, plus HC 4 saw Byzantines defeating Lithuanians even with 4 relics collected, and winrates and pickrates shows that they are fine.

  • Spanish: Lots of people discuss about eco bonus and similar like crossbowman cuz they are in a “bad spot”, but they have the highest number of technologies in the game, plus the badass Team bonus for closed maps, goldless BS techs, they are great at water, if Spanish needs something is like buffing Conqs a bit, or giving some mid game bonus like Ballistics and Chemistry without Gold cost, but that’s it.

  • Magyars don’t need big eco bonuses, their scout rush is already strong with the free attack upgrades and cheap scouts, plus their UU being amog the best trash units and their badass cav archers, any big eco buff would turn the deathball of Magyar Huszar+Heavy cavalry archer OP, If anything, they need a small booming bonus for closed maps where they are terrible.

  • Bulgarians finally are a great civ for 1v1, they DON’T need any sort of nerf as some people discussed before, go and check their winrates and pickrates, plus how they are performing at tournaments, they are finally a worthy civ to pick, and NO, they DON’T need crossbows, the BS bonuses and free Militia upgrades would turn that transitions extremely broken.

  • Lithuanians: before complaining that "+8 aTtAcK pAlaDin/lEiTis Is tOo bRoKeN and rewarding, go and play yourself and discover that getting relics, even in a TG, isn’t an easy task, and tell how “broken” are vs their counters 11 plus is the only Strong bonus to keep the relevant at the game, and damn, they are fine. And no, they can’t lose hussar.

  • Teutons: thanks to that +2 melee armor, they are a worthy civ to pick, plus even wth that, their counters aren’t invalidated, and if you say that are too good at Arena, well even here aren’t that highly picked, psu in other areas they are the same, and if we have Persians as top pick for Nomad, Teutons are fine.

  • Turks: FOR THE DEAR LOVE OF GOD, they DON’T need ELITE SKIRMISHER, their Hussars are extremely powerful to raid and kill archers, and halbs are the only way to stop that Hussar flood at your base, with Elite skirmishers, fighting back that +7PA Hussar flood would be impossible to deal with.

  • Franks: Their forager bonus was nerfed, Franks have very limited Tech tree, they are popular just because they are easy to manage, but still beatable, so no, NO MORE NERFS.

  • Mayans: 20 years of El Dorado being the same, wasn’t never broken (go and play 100 HP Elite Eagle Warrior vs Champions or even paladins and tell me if is broken), and never will be, what made Mayans broken was the freaking Obsidian Arrows tech in conjuction with their eco and cheaper archers, and damnn!!! STOP WORKSHIPPING T90 claim that Hul Che Javelineers is broken, because it isn’t.

  • Cumans: their second TC at feudal is their identity, don’t take it away (plus their only booming bonus), Bracer would make their kipchaks almost OP, and wtf with taking away paladin or even Knight line 11 so NO, they only need a small dark age bonus like the Tatars, no more, and GOD Steppe Husbandry affecting Kipchaks.

There are the only things to be nerfed and should be priority:

  • Chinese: Please before saying that they are hard to manage at lower ELO (myself included) and that are hard countered by onagers, go and check their tournament perfomance, They are almost picked like 90% of the time, they are banned in several maps because they are too broken here, plus they have absurd eco for all stages of the game, good booming, OP UU and Imperial UT, before Onagers are fielded, Chinese gathered enough resources to deny that in a crazy way, they have good defenses, broad tech tree, unlike a civ like Lithuanians they seem to have little to no weaknesses, their Current state is critically overpowered and unbalanced and need a GOOD nerf. Hera even is like “What isn’t Broken with Chinese” 11
    Check this video with TaToH expleaning why they are bad at low level:The Curious Case of the Chinese Win Rate ft. TaToH - YouTube

  • Vikings: Their land play is fine, but in water is still too strong, their Longboats are just crazy and oppressive with their discount, nerfing it at feudal age and the team bonus, the they are fine. AND GOD THE BERSERK is the only brute force that they can use.


VIkings on water is atrocious

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Didn’t Vikings get a small nerf last patch or two?

And Chinese should be nerfed after block printing.

That Chieftains cost increase is laughable at best with the Vikings eco, but they need that because their army at land is pretty bad.

Nerfing chieftains did nothing to vikings. vikings are just too good on water. And I fear Portuguese too.

Spanish, I believe they need a little eco/military bonus. Same with burmese.

All in all, I agree pretty much with the list

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They shoud be equal as each civ? Are you for real? There are civs which have to be strong on water. We don`t have 37 civs for make every identical. Vikings and portuguese just shoud be stronger on water

The same thing I can say about pre nerf Indians, they must be strong at shore fish maps and TGs be the only viable civ here and making unfun to others :slight_smile:
Vikings are just too strong at water, Italians used to be too strong (And still are with the university discounts) and just because water is niche didin’t prevent them to be nerfed here.

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take away handcart from vikings pls


Not before they get Halbs to compensate

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Indians are 60% win rate on African clearing which shows their fishing bonus is too OP on pond maps

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No word about Goth civ?

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Goths only need Thumb Ring.

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How did you extrapolate that conclusion from what I’ve said? I did not want them to be equal as every other civ, but they’re miles ahead of any other water cov (except maybe Italians)


Italians are still kinda OP on water with cheaper chemistry and Ballistics.

Funny, cause the only thing they lack is eco bonus.

You know that on water maps, even if you factor in the 33% discount on ballistics and chemistry (and dock techs of course) they save less than what they saved before on just dock techs but with 50% discount.


Still waiting for free town patrol though. Devs sure are stubborn on this one.

Spanish had two good things for their “early” game: tower rushes and conqs. Both got nerfed in DE. They do need some help imo.

I think they needed elite skirm instead of +1 PA on top of free hussar upgrade. Imo this was a wrong choice by the dev, but what is done is done.

Chinese and Vikings need a nerf. People constantly coming up with excuses need to face reality, these two civs are way too good in most of the settings.


Did they not get free town patrol already?


No just town watch. Same as ever

We should talk about the elephant in the room. Elephants