In the current treaty landscape, there are two sore points. Ethiopia and the USA are two civs which have been S+ tier since they were released, in the meantime Hausa has dropped to A tier due to their strong economy but abusable flaws. It has come to the point where playing any of these civs is just seen as laming and in many cases an auto-win button, and they have been indefinitely banned in tourneys.
Why?
The USA only really needs to make 1 unit in the state militia, while having a formidable economy to back it up, have the option of a strong musk and the flag buff. The 900 HP Cree skirmishers are a nice bonus on top of that. Cheap (Cree + Oregon trail + fast wagon train time) tower spam is still possible with the capitol.
Ethiopia is even worse, their Sebastopol mortars take 3 culv shots to kill, and are fast enough to move out of culv range and get rapidly healed by abuns in the meantime, making your initial culv shots you managed to pull off useless. Next to this they can spam javelin riders like there is no tomorrow, even against a skirm mass, have a good skirm unit in the neftenya and get influence + gold per kill, further buffing their eco. It’s immensely frustrating to take good trades vs Ethiopia, and still see their score go up and yours go down.
Ethiopian Sebastopol mortars which are equivalent to beefed up great bombards can train in batches of 5
Supremacy balance?
I am aware Ethiopia and Hausa got nerfed in supremacy due to strong early game potential, but it should be possible to not make the mortars as oppressive in the late game as they are now by for example addressing abun healing. The javelin riders seem too tanky to be worth 1 pop, is making them 2 pop an option with a slight stat increase without destroying their supremacy viability?
What do you mean by this? Flag does not boost art, or maybe I do not understand what you are saying?
I agree with you. The new cis are very fun to play, but are crazy broken in treaty. I hope they are balanced soon so I can actually enjoy them. As they are now it’s almost a guaranteed win.
Can you imagine playing something like Ottomans vs any 3 of these civs, lul
I ban these civs too in casual games just because If you don’t match it with another broken civ, you don’t stand a chance.
…and ranked treaty… hhahalololol good luck. Better go in with nothin but one of these broken civs.
W8 is US considered OP in treaty, from my experience it has an extremely bad matchup against China, with all of their units losing to Dynasty reformed units + crow and mortar just shredding defesenses.
hand mortars should be fairly easy to deal with using culverins, obviously any treaty game isnt just spam 1 unit but you specifically mentioned infantry as your problem so yeah.
In a micro duel of hand mortars vs culvs I still think hand mortars win just because they will be much more easy to micro, a culv shot can kill 1 mortar but there will be multiple mortars firing, china also have +40% on artillery so it won’t be an easy fight.
Not to mention that if you have culvs it will be harder to push while hand mortars can be used to apply pressure on forward position if they win
a culv can often multi kill mortars and mortars are actually really expensive because they cost 90 wood per unit. 40% might seem like a lot but the unit does like 60 dmg vs artillery without it and you have card issues with china, often i feel like id only take part of the artillery cards esp if i go with the reform card.
they also overkill the mortars which makes it a very inefficient trade, with 1 aoe they can kill 2 at best, meaning that you can’t negate the mortar threat while the mortar can still continue firing which they will also fire again more quickly due to their lower ROF.
at max stats it takes 8 mortar shots to kill a culv, meaning that a group of 10 mortars is guaranteed a kill on a culv, but say against 2 culvs can at best kill 4 hand mortars ( assuming micro) meaning that hand mortars can negate 50% of the damage of the culv while the culv can only negate 40% of the mortar damage.
and China really doesn’t have a wood problem anymore now that keshiks can be trained without costing wood. Wood would be only used for buildings and mortars, so if anything its in china’s long term advatage to drain others wood supply.
If your units lose to Chinese units you’re not making enough state militia and culvs. It’s annoying to micro the hand mortars, yes, but as long as you can fight under your flag you should win with some horse art.
Not exactly the point but I’ve always thought it as a problem. Healers from legacy are really, really bad. Literally a “filler” unit. Meanwhile African healers (on top of having more range and heal units in battles) also have super duper good effects (specially Griots who can get ridiculous speed, HP, stun enemies and boost your buildings).
Bold means the unit is superior on the stat.
Italic means the unit is inferior on it.
Strikethrough means they are equal
PRIEST/HEALERS Hit Points: 360 HP Heal: 10HP/s Train Time: 30sec Train Limit: 30 Has 20% armor? NO Has cards that help you in battles? NO Cost: 150 coin Range: 12 Can heal units that are moving? NO Can heal units that are fighting? NO Has special effect? NO Can collect treasures? NO? Can act as a settler while it’s not acting as a priest? NO
ABUN Hit Points: 360HP Heal: 10HP/s Train Time: 30s Train Limit: 5 Has 20% armor? NO Has cards that help you in battles? NO Cost: 120 coin Range: 18 Can heal units that are moving? YES Can heal units that are fighting? YES Has special effect? YES Can collect treasures? NO? Can act as a settler while it’s not acting as a priest? YES
GRIOT Hit Points: 360HP Heal: 10HP/s Train Time: 30sec Train Limit: 5 Has 20% armor? YES Has cards that help you in battles? YES Cost: 120 coin Range: 18 Can heal units that are moving? YES Can heal units that are fighting? YES Can act as a settler while it’s not acting as a priest? YES Can collect treasures? YES
Having nearly the same range as a Skirmish is just too good to heal Sebastapool. Specially while it’s shooting/ moving. But compared to Griots, Abuns extremely balanced.
The javelin riders seem too tanky to be worth 1 pop, is making them 2 pop an option with a slight stat increase without destroying their supremacy viability?
African civs already have such a good army with potential of even more with alliances… I don’t know why the Javelin Rider still has those stats/ wasn’t moved to Fortress age.
china can just use forbidden army against a state militia and culv comp.
Iron fails with Mongolian scourge and double sided armour are almost the perfect counter to state milita and the meteor hammers counter the culvs as well as the militias.
Like I am not sure what is the comp of the US that china would have a problem against.
China treaty is weak to stuff like heavy infantry with splash damage, like dopples, hatamato samurais and landskesersts. not to a range infantry comp
Edit: also want to add that china can spam flying crows from shipment, so will have range advantage in an artillery duel
I think there are a few things that need to be adjusted: (from a treaty perspective, I play supremacy too, but I am bad at it)
State Militia are just to good for what they cost
The 1200 wood shipment is to good, Late game there is never any pressure to keep up with wood because you can just instantly deposit 1200.
The flag… It’s weird tho, with the flag, they are to strong, but without the flag the units are quite weak. Maybe if the state militia are balanced properly, it won’t be a problem. The range that land of Lincon provides the flag should be reduced.
The eco, Maybe they should loose a mill and a plantation card, or lower the base gather rate. The US eco is just damn near impossible to drain.
and to a lesser extent the tower spam, at least now it is limited to 7, but it’s still annoying… They are just to easy to get up. Maybe the organ trail card can still make them cheap, but increase the build time as a penalty.
Mixing in your musk should be good enough vs heavy cav spammers. Your goons are still ■■■■but I don’t see how China can push USA unless you’re just a skill tier above your opponent. Not disregarding China’s eco here, which is strong; it’s still an S tier civ, but the 5 sw + 96 vil + 8 cdb S+ USA eco combined with the ultra cost efficient state militia should win in the end.
And flying crows are also quite weak as far as heavy artillery is concerned.
Griots are mainly used to speed up unit production though, and if you use them in battle they actually have to be mixed in with your main army instead of standing in the back healing like the abuns.
They can only empower buildings or give a speed boost though in a non-military context?
I am not saying that US should like outright lose, but that its not a great matchup for the US, unit wise.
Chinese units are also cost efficient, and with the standard composition of cav + CKN or skirm, US units will not be an efficient counter due to how tanky lategame chinese cav are. you dont even need to spam cav, you just need the cav to rush in while skirms and CKN come in from behind.
Iron fail can have about 600 hp with 40 range resist, and deals 78 damage against skirm units with splash, meaning that against a range unit comp, it will just tank like no tomorrow.
The steppe rider is also technically even tankier, since they cost one pop they have combined like 700 hp with 30 range resist. They dont deal splash but can surround more easily and can also siege down buildings easily.
That is also not account for â– â– â– â– like 2 3k hp monks in cover mode that is spamming disciple and can just get fully healed in the middle of combat with the wonder power.
China do need to be smart in their fights, since the key is in pushing with massive numbers through shipments and overpoping with the consulate. china can do this 4 times with like 250 pop each time. So there are points where China can push to break and then fortify new positions.
There is also more chessy things that can be done, like repeatedly deleting tcs to spam minutemen and then instantly rehealing them to max health at the beginning of treaty for like a potential 400 pop army to push
