Treaty changes on the old civilizations

[Erchere]

With brining all the new civilizations to DE the old civilizations are really underperforming except those which were top tier on the legacy such as French, Portuguese, Japanese, Spanish, Chinese.
Not saying that the new civilizations are bad but saying old civilizations need a rework (new cards or new mechanics) to be able to compete with the current treaty meta. Gonna list some example of the current issues with the old civilizations.

British:
Decent economy but lacks skirm, slow artillery training, rockets could really use a nice buff because they don’t seem to do much now. I love the rockets but every time I use the they make me lose my push. Chinese flying crows are similar option but much more effective.

Germans:
Decent economy BUT lack of population and not effective units. You get 99 villagers + 23 settler wagons clearly the economy looks amazing but your units are not effective enough. Imperial Uhlans very low Hp, Imperial Skirmishers not that efficient compared to other Skirmishers in the game at the moment, warwagons very pop heavy basically 3 pop for an anti cavalry which has mele resistance is just too much, Doppelsoldner are 2 pop as well so basically your whole civilzation is stacked with bunch of heavy population units which are not really effective. The only good point about Germany is the 1 infinite Heavy cannon shipment which AGAIN 4 uhlan (8 pop) + 1 heavy cannon (7 pop) = 15 population when you send the card. Basically your only chance of winning a treaty game with the current meta with Germany is camping and most of the time enemy will just run over you because of lack of population. You can delete villagers of course but economy will drop at the same time as well. Main point is the efficiency of the units. The church card of Germany is one of the worst cards in treaty, not competitive at all. German mercenaries don’t get enough buff (not even close to Swedish mercenaries) just because you only have 1 card that boost their combat by 20% and yet you can only train them from saloon.

Ottomans:
Again just like Germany, economy is decent but units are not effective. Lack of training speed on Abusgun and the fact that only Janissaries are your 1 pop unit is just frustrating, clearly you can vil delete and try to push but then again, against top tier civilizations you have no chance of winning. Abusguns were nerfed super hard on DE because of supremacy but clearly there is the solution for it. Other thing, your only infantry is Janissary inside the barracks so basically the variety of infantry/1pop units is just there. Nizams are good shipments but then again only can be sent from homecity, I don’t get it why a unit like Neftenya can be there with no limit with range and siege resistance and high HP and attack while Nizams can’t be in barracks, maybe just change nizams to rifle infantry then that should fix it. Again there are bunch of solution for this but will make this super long. So I won’t go in detail.

India:
The second worse civilization in treaty, lacks proper artillery, siege elephants can be countered by every single unit in the game just because of their unit tags. You could get falcons and bombards from consulate but cost export and getting export is not easy plus they no arsenal upgrades so basically they are nothing. Infantry training is awful, proper cavalry is not there, camels are awful even though they have 2 cards but then their HP is not really ideal even with mansabdar units, elephants are super expensive and super pop heavy. Economy is fine.

Aztecs:
The worse civilization in the game, lack of anti artillery and super weak units with the explorer that only boost kill XP, stacking the gold shipment is fine but then units are not even cost effective, why arrow knights and huaracas don’t get siege resistance and yet neftenya get siege resistance? So basically 3-4 horse artillery can wreck Huaraca and Arrow Knight in general. Defending against Cayote is super easy because of low stats and slow training. Best and most useful unit that they have is Eagle Runner Knight which trains slow, other units are rather bad. Ottontin slingers are worse than Strelets. Economy is fine but units are awful. The recent adjustments on the Aztecs was kinda bad, they felt better with stronger Jaguar Knights (even though they were more expensive as well)

Russians:
Your best way to play with them is split fights and runs basically in a headsup1v1 they make the worse trades because of super weak units.

There are more stuff about civilizations in treaty but then I guess this will be a good start to adjust the treaty balance/updates.

[OperaticShip743]

For my Lakota it is the worst civilization in the treaty. Because of its economy, which is very bad.

[vitorcxb20]

o que salva os lakotas são os teeppes, os lakotas não precisão coletar comida em fazendas as cartas de 20% + 25 % caçar +bisão infinito salva por mais um tempo sua economia mova 80 para coletar ouro e 20 para coletar bisão a economia salva por mais tempo

[OperaticShip743]

@Erchere

Germans:
Decent economy BUT lack of population and not effective units. You get 99 villagers + 23 settler wagons clearly the economy looks amazing but your units are not effective enough. Imperial Uhlans very low Hp, Imperial Skirmishers not that efficient compared to other Skirmishers in the game at the moment, warwagons very pop heavy basically 3 pop for an anti cavalry which has mele resistance is just too much, Doppelsoldner are 2 pop as well so basically your whole civilzation is stacked with bunch of heavy population units which are not really effective. The only good point about Germany is the 1 infinite Heavy cannon shipment which AGAIN 4 uhlan (8 pop) + 1 heavy cannon (7 pop) = 15 population when you send the card. Basically your only chance of winning a treaty game with the current meta with Germany is camping and most of the time enemy will just run over you because of lack of population. You can delete villagers of course but economy will drop at the same time as well. Main point is the efficiency of the units. The church card of Germany is one of the worst cards in treaty, not competitive at all. German mercenaries don’t get enough buff (not even close to Swedish mercenaries) just because you only have 1 card that boost their combat by 20% and yet you can only train them from saloon.

Wallensteins contract needs a rework

Considering that the Germans do not have infinite native shipments, they could get a new shipment of infinite Highlander or Riflemen, since they lack Musketeers. Once they do the improvement of Wallensteins contract and reach the imperial age, the mercenaries will stop costing population (Since they don’t have infinite native cards), but will have a limited creation limit. This will make infinite mercenary shipments useful in the treaty. A separate suggestion is that they enable the bayonet up…

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@Erchere

Ottomans:
Again just like Germany, economy is decent but units are not effective. Lack of training speed on Abusgun and the fact that only Janissaries are your 1 pop unit is just frustrating, clearly you can vil delete and try to push but then again, against top tier civilizations you have no chance of winning. Abusguns were nerfed super hard on DE because of supremacy but clearly there is the solution for it. Other thing, your only infantry is Janissary inside the barracks so basically the variety of infantry/1pop units is just there. Nizams are good shipments but then again only can be sent from homecity, I don’t get it why a unit like Neftenya can be there with no limit with range and siege resistance and high HP and attack while Nizams can’t be in barracks, maybe just change nizams to rifle infantry then that should fix it. Again there are bunch of solution for this but will make this super long. So I won’t go in detail.

Nearly outdated stuff that could be useful. (Potential improvements)

For the Ottomans we could substitute the card ‘15 barbarian corsairs’, as it is useless in the treaty. The best would be a native ally. [Captura de pantalla (274)] The Berbers could be a good complement to the Ottomans. [image]

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@Erchere

India:
The second worse civilization in treaty, lacks proper artillery, siege elephants can be countered by every single unit in the game just because of their unit tags. You could get falcons and bombards from consulate but cost export and getting export is not easy plus they no arsenal upgrades so basically they are nothing. Infantry training is awful, proper cavalry is not there, camels are awful even though they have 2 cards but then their HP is not really ideal even with mansabdar units, elephants are super expensive and super pop heavy. Economy is fine.

Improving the viability of Indian wonders for treaty mode or extended play

Next I will talk about some suggestions to improve the wonders of the Indian civilization, and some changes for the allies of the consulate. All this with the purpose of improving their participation in the treaty and in the extended game. Agra Fort [image] Besides improving himself, he also improves defensive buildings. (It could increase your cost accordingly) Age II. No effect. Age III. Improves the resistance points of defensive buildings by + 5%. (Walls and towers) Age IV. Improves t…

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For civilizations without access to arsenal that take alliances with powder cavalry and / or units with firearms:

Nearly outdated stuff that could be useful. (Potential improvements)

For civilizations that do not have access to the arsenal, in case of allying with minor facsions it would be good that in those places exclusively for facsions without arsenal, there are 3 improvements available: In case of being gunpowder cavalry, add the upgrade ‘cavalry snail’ In case they are skirmishers add ‘anti-infantry rifles’ In case they are musketeers add ‘socket bayonet’ This would make native allies more useful for civilizations that lack these technologies. For example, when th…

In case the alliance is with cavalry of archers, they could increase the reach by +1 in age 3 and +1 in age 4. For example, Aztecs form an alliance with the Comanches.

[Erchere]

Lakota atm is S tier because of their explorer and teepee wakina combo. Not enough eco but broken explorer mechanics. If you know what you are doing lakota is deadly

[Jonasnee8581]

@Erchere

The church card of Germany is one of the worst cards in treaty

the british one is also pretty bad, 20% health is not worth losing 1 speed on all your infantry.

@Erchere

Ottomans:

i feel like a way to buff ottomans would be to improve their cavalry, its just really bad with basically no upgrades, only dutch and portugese hussars are worse.

[Ekdal1378]

@Erchere

artillery training

Like most civs that dont have engineering school??

@Erchere

infinite Heavy cannon shipment

Agree with this, I would remove uhlans with other units, maybe other Hcanon is too much. A culverin maybe??

@Erchere

The second worse civilization in treaty,

I think that lakota and Hauds are worse. I havent see any Hauds player yet on DE, there were more on legacy lol
But agree on that points, elephant should work like canons vs any kind of infantry to keep their uniqueness.
they need a heavy boost to Karni Mata, ¿¿¿?really Mexico has a 20% bonus (probably in a greater area) that can be moved and cant be destroyed??? Its ridicoulous that is a worse economic theory

@Erchere

Aztecs:

Their main problem is killing mass skirmishers, they only struggle with civs like china or USA for the lack of range antiskirms units. Maybe giving a bonus to AK could solve the problem.

@Erchere

they felt better with stronger Jaguar Knights

Totally agree I always said that devs should move that cost/stats reduction effect to the card that allows them on age II, incas get a travois come on

[OperaticShip743]

The ‘17 Mayan Allies’ card does not yet receive the benefit of the ‘Holcan Warriors’ having a ranged attack as with the Mayan settlements or the civilization Mexican. (For Aztecs)

They could also have Apache allies as an infinite card.

[WunderSunderA]

@Ekdal1378

I think that lakota and Hauds are worse

Lakota aka the civ you are not allowed to have artillery against since they received mortars and their explorer now happily runs in and kills all your art? Definitely not worse than India.

[Ekdal1378]

They cant do anything in choke points with defended canons taking down your teepees. Try them on orinoco. Aztecs kill them in seconds

[WunderSunderA]

And how exactly are you defending your cannons? What does aztec have to do with defending cannons? What does india do on orinoco besides waiting for their units to be trained?

[Ekdal1378]

Aztecs dont need canons, just mortars to take down teepees. ERKs plus cyotes kill any lakota army

[Erchere]

Are you sure about this? in any case, Lakota is top tier there is nothing to argue about it, needs adjustments for sure, nerf explorer buff economy or something like that.

[OperaticShip743]

@Erchere

There are more stuff about civilizations in treaty but then I guess this will be a good start to adjust the treaty balance/updates.

I have thought that the initial area of influence should be square and not circular. Also a little bigger. Also to be able to build wall (gates) on the commercial route.

Native settlements and route TPs should not be blocked. They should also be evenly divided in some way.

Also eliminate the pillars of the wall and build only in corners or doors.

[Ekdal1378]

Why an square are into a round map?? This is not AoE2

[OperaticShip743]

Easier to arrange the buildings and build the wall.

It is also good for team games where there could be a border with a straight line pattern and not circular where sometimes they give corners that are difficult to defend.

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@Erchere

Abusguns

Their scope was improved, but they have very little resistance to the projectile.

Currently: 20% vs. Ranged with 130 resistance points (Base).
I would give it 40-45% in the late game since the unit is 2 population and very expensive.

Abus Gunner

Skirmisher has 30% vs. Ranged with 120 resistance points (Base).

Skirmisher (Age of Empires III)

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One possible way to improve Ottoman troop training:

Nearly outdated stuff that could be useful. (Potential improvements)

Since some ‘Imams’ were also military and politicians leaders (at least one according to the lore of the game), they could have a different function than the proposal I have made about priests in general: [image] Imam: Generates much less experience than priests, but increases infantry creation speed by 1.5% and cavalry by 0.5% when garrisoned in the mosque. (They would not occupy population) With a limit of 5 possible, then we would have a + 7.5% infantry creation speed, and a + 2.5% caval…

[OperaticShip743]

Already Aztecs and Spaniards have Holcan warriors with ranged attack.

[Erchere]

I have to disagree on these with u sadly, mostly the wall. The wall is one of the mechanics in the game where you have to learn and master it so should be there regardless

[OperaticShip743]

I understand that this has been ingrained in the game for a long time, but I think it hampers the defenses. In addition, in the late game or in the treaty game, the trade route does not have the relevance that in the first minutes, except for the trade monopoly. But it must be remembered that native settlements can also be locked behind the walls and in the same way win by commercial monopoly.