Improving the viability of Indian wonders for treaty mode or extended play

Age of Empires III: DE III - Discussion
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Next I will talk about some suggestions to improve the wonders of the Indian civilization, and some changes for the allies of the consulate. All this with the purpose of improving their participation in the treaty and in the extended game.

Agra Fort

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Besides improving himself, he also improves defensive buildings. (It could increase your cost accordingly)

Age II. No effect.

Age III. Improves the resistance points of defensive buildings by + 5%. (Walls and towers)

Age IV. Improves the resistance points of defensive buildings by + 5%. (Walls and towers) and increases the range and visual field by 3.0

Age V. Improves the resistance points of defensive buildings by + 10%. (Walls and towers) and increases the range and visual field in 3.0.

Potentially we would have defensive buildings with + 20% resistance points and +6.0 range and visual field. Of course if you build the fort in later ages it will assume the improvements of the previous ages.

Since the ā€˜upgraded buildingsā€™ equipment card only upgrades their buildings by + 25%, I think they need a little more upgrade to match other civilizations. For other civilizations the card improves buildings by + 40%.

The improved range is so that she can better fight the siege and I donā€™t consider it absurd as the Japanese can also achieve a +6.0 range with a card. Also because the wood for the Indians is more valuable than for other civilizations and if their defensive buildings are better, it will justify the spindle of that wood in them.

Also, the siege of other civilizations is superior to that of the Indians and improving their defenses would make them stronger at home, but they are no match for mortars. And this would give a greater importance to the Agra Fort considering that it is a wonder.

Charminar Gate

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In addition to its current benefits, it will improve the speed of creation of ground troops.

Age II. No effects.

Age III. Military ground units are created + 5% faster.

Age IV. Military ground units are created + 5% faster.

Age V. Military land units are created + 5% faster.
and Mansabdar units cost -2.0 population and can reach the metropolis destination when trained.

Potentially we would have + 15% in training speed, the Mansabdar cost -2.0 population and can reach the destination metropolis when they are trained.

Karni Mata

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Improve the bonus area at later ages.

Age II. (Current rank)

Age III. Increase the bonus area by +5.0

Age IV. Increase the bonus area by +5.0

Age V. Bonuses the harvest of villagers anywhere on the map. (Not the fishing boats)

This to have freedom of construction for crops and to obtain natural resources more efficiently in the mid-late stages of game.

Taj Mahal

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In the imperial era the skill ā€˜Cease fireā€™ recharges 50 seconds faster (From 450 seconds it drops to 400) and the Taj Mahal generates a little experience.

Tower of Victory

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Enables an Imperial Age buff that allows you to receive a 5.0 wood dropper per second. (This is a marvel that it grants medera when you build it. I donā€™t know if there is an argument behind this, but it would be nice for the Indians at the end of the game to have an extra income of wood).

Other changes:

Changes in the consulate:
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The alliance with the Ottomans increases the field of view of only troops, and artillery units are created 5% faster. In addition, the villagers can create artillery foundries that in turn can create falconets and horse artillery in the imperial era.

In case the viability of the export resource is improved, there would be no need to build foundries, since the artillery can be obtained by the consulate.

The Zamburak.
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Gain +1.0 point of range in age III, and +1.0 range in age IV when the respective upgrades are made for each age. This is so that it is possible to equate the dragons that can have a total reach of 14 when they make the arsenal improvements. It would even be a little lower than the arsenal improvements because the arsenal also improves damage by +10%.

We could also make the Portuguese provide an arsenal to the Indians where the upgrade ā€˜cavalry snailā€™ is enabled to improve their ranged cavalry (it would also affect the Howdah, but their Ethiopian counterpart unit can achieve a rank of 18 with the upgrade of the arsenal ). In this case, what was said above about the zamburak is no longer necessary because the arsenal would give the missing improvements.

We would have to change the benefit of the card ā€˜royal green jacketsā€™, since the arsenal would enable the improvement of anti-infantry rifles. Also reduce sepoys base mele damage by 20%, as they would have access to the socket bayonet upgrade. They would also have access to the ā€˜cavalry cuirassā€™ upgrade, but that does not affect the Mahout Lancer (It could be very strong, but Iā€™m not sure and would have to be tested). and only the Sowar (it would be good in my opinion) and other different cavalry obtained by other means.

Well, what do you think of what I have proposed? It is what I consider for India to improve in the treaty.

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Una idea que respeta el balance del juego y es innovadora. :+1:

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Solution to make india more played in treaty - Age of Empires III: DE / III - Discussion - Age of Empires Forum

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I hope so. I try to cover the weaknesses of this civilization.

Yes. I discussed some issues in the forum like the scope of the zamburaks.

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I think this is another instance in which this idea of having the possibility of making export more viable if you invest on it might help.

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What Iā€™m not sure is if the export equals the resources it sacrifices. For example the influence of Africa I think it has an equivalent in normal resources, and I suppose that the units that cost influence is equivalent.

This is the current influence value:
ā€œ1 Influence is now worth 1.25 food (down from 1.3) ā€“ therefore when the game calculates the cost of units/technologies available at Native Settlements, those with food costs will be converted to a *slightly higher Influence amount for African civsā€

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Thatā€™s a good observation. Judging by the analysis I could run on my side this is not the case, although it has to be considered that export gathers passively. The thing is that even when you try to gather it actively with the 5% 10% resources sacrifice for export, because the original passive gather rate is so low, the export you get in return is still minimal. Hereā€™s the calculation:

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If the export resource becomes more practical to use, there is no need to create artillery. These weapons are as good as their homologous units; The problem is that they arrive very slowly and occupy a lot of population while the shipment is being carried out. And according to your calculations they would cost much more than the value of a cannon with standard resources.

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you add many things to india eco etc, but dont substract anything and you talk about balance?

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Right, I guess that if export is ever to become more viable, you would have to sacrifice eco cards for it and build a special deck for such a strategy. One of the cards that such a deck should have (I imagine) is Good Faith Agreements that helps Consulate armiesā€™ train time -50%.

It should also be said that this card has a discount for Brigades but not for Consulate armies. If the discount is extended, this card would be much worth it, in both supremacy and treaty. It currently forms part of niche strategies that are not terrible but far from being part of the competitive meta.

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Well, the most significant thing I have proposed is the cannons. It is something that they already obtain through exports, but it is not very efficient. It could be changed in some way to obtain them more efficiently without breaking the balance.

For the standard game, India is perfect, and thatā€™s why my focus is on later ages. These are my approaches:

Training speed is one of those weaknesses and that is why I propose that gradually improve over time.

Buildings weaker than other civilizations when using cards. That is why I propose that they improve over time.

Agraā€™s fort contributes very little in the long run, which is why I propose to improve defensive play in the late game.

The zamburak upgrade is required for the late game. You need more reach to match the units with the same purpose (dragons and carabinieri).

Mansabdar reduces its population: Compared to the Daimyo they are inferior. Daimyo can receive shipments, bonus all troops in general and can create all kinds of units. The daymios occupy a population of 12 in total, but that is compensated by an extra 20 military population. In addition, Japan has the Golden Pavilion that further bonuses its troops. The shogunate makes military units cheaper and also the Daimyos cheaper.

A superior wood source in late game. I explain:

With what is proposed (5.0 / s), plus the drip cards (together they would generate 3.6 / s) would be a total of 8.6 / s.
But the 1300 infinity card (arrives every 150 seconds (1:50 when the shipment is won + 40 to arrive + the time it takes to collect it)) I think they would equal two European factories (more or less). In 150 seconds we would have 2590 of wood, but we would use a shipment and we would also have to pick it up.
Note: These calculations were made without a fight, so the experience obtaining could be higher. But we assume that you will lose wood in buildings and elephants when you create them and when you lose them, so it would be more or less the same.

Both factories together generate 14.30 /S with the upgrade, which in 150 seconds equals 2145 wood. It would be less than the Indians, but their need for wood is lower and they would be using the shipments for another purpose. Even for Europeans it is insufficient when creating natives and ships in the treaty game.

Some weaknesses remain (And thatā€™s fine):

Siege with little reach and also the siege elephants remain vulnerable to skirmishers, anti-cavalry cavalry and culverins.

Vulnerable to long-range siege: Siege Elephants have a maximum range of 30. Culverins have a range of 34 so they are superior against mortars than Siege Elephants. The mortars have a standard range of 40. The Indians can obtain culverins through the Portuguese, but in the late game using Portuguese is not recommended because the other 3 consulate obtions are much better (French + 5% economy. Ottomans bombards and better field of view, and if they implement my suggestion + 5% artillery creation. English + 7% resistance points). Of course, only one perk can be used at a time depending on the ally you choose. The Portuguese only reduce the cost of buildings.

Only when it comes to wood. Perhaps Karni Mata rank is the most daring, but in the late game there is not much to collect on the map anymore.

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siege elephants are indestructible on team fights, they just have to hit and run and hide , most profit unit, skirmishers dont ven touch them, they have morerange and have 1500 hp, maybe skirmishers coud kill just 1

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Yes. That is why it is not a unit that needs to be improved. Its limitations are its cadence and its range, which is not short, but it is not too much.

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About Karni Mata I would change it to affect over final stats as every aura does. This will boost indian lategame eco withou touching supremacy meta.
Also green jackets should give you anti-infantry rifle instead to give +1 to gurkhas, this way natives, mercs and team cardsā€™ skirmishers are improved.

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That is why I think it is better that they have access to an arsenal through the Portuguese. To improve the reach of the cavalry and the bonus of +1 against infantry of the rifles. I think they also need +1 against ships th the Incendiary Projectile upgrade. The sepoys attack should be adjusted so that the bayonet upgrade does not make them too strong in melee. The infantry cuirass would be a good fit for the use of natives or mersenarians. The cuirassier rider upgrade I suppose it is necessary for the camel to mele and the cavalry that you obtain by other means, but for the elephants I donā€™t know if it would be too much to become OP; I suppose that its limitation is the population, its slowness and the price in wood. And the artillery quadrant improves the field of view of the artillery so it doesnā€™t seem very relevant to me.

Increase your bonus percentage or your area of effect? The Karni Mata has a bonus of 10%, which is equivalent to the European economic theory card, but only if it is close.

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Neither, i think he means, as i think too, that instead that it behave like an economic theory card so +10%, for example for food would be 2.25 ā€”+10%ā€”> 2.35, so that it behaves instead, like it should, as and aura, that means no +10% but x1.1, so for the same case it would be 2.25 ā€”x1.1ā€”> 2.475 and that way is still the same bonus when rice paddies have no upgrades but it increases a tiny bit with each upgrade compared to the only +10% so that buffs late game eco but early game eco remains almost the same

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Absolutely not, i have an analysis that i just start to do but donĀ“t know if i can post it here, will try. IĀ“m precisely studying export right now xd

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ItĀ“s not finished, i just started it yesterday and just to not get lost in this subject, itĀ“s like the introduction of the analysis to export.

Export normal gather rate seems to be 0.034 p/s per villager, because it seems that the game round up when the third decimal is at least 5, so for example, 1.225 would appear as 1.23, so for export at normal (0%) it appears as 0.03, but for 5% it already appears as 0.05 so that means is 0.045 or more but as at 10% appears also as 0.05 it cannot be 0.055 or more, so 0.034 is the tight answer cause if we use 0.033 it just reach 0.04455 for 5% wich would appear as 0.04 but it is not the case, and also if it were 0.035 it gets to 0.056 at 10% so it would appear as 0.06 so it should be 0.034 the base, normal gather rate for export (i was thinking that if devs change it to 3 decimals could be great).

1. Gather export and other resources normally.
2. Gather export 35% faster but gather other resources 5% slower.
3. Gather export 60% faster but gather other resources 10% slower.

That means 0.0459exp gather rate and 0.0544exp gather rate for 5% and 10% options, respectively.

Export gather, is, as there is no other upgrades to villager gather, a x1, x1.35, x1.6 times the normal (0.034) gather rate with the options, but can be considered as +35% and +60% as well because there are no other upgrades to support any of this both behaviours, only, perhaps, the behaviour of the negative bonus for the other resources.

Other resources gather is -5% and -10% of the base gather rate of villagers for each resource, that means it is not x0.95 and x0.9 of the total gather rate of villagers, wich would be worse.

Export base, normal gather rate is 0.034 export p/s, so taking:

  • 35% faster export gather means +0.0119exp p/s per villager
  • 60% faster export gather means +0.0204exp p/s per villager.

And the loss on other resorces for gathering export faster then, are, by taking:

  • 5% slower export gather rate, -0.042f p/s per vill, -0.025w p/s per vill or -0.03c p/s per vill
  • 10% slower export gather rate, -0.084f p/s per vill, -0.05w p/s per vill or -0.06c p/s per vill
    Depending on what resources are gathering with how many villagers, etc.

So:

-5%/+35% meansā€¦

  • +0.0119exp p/s per villager

  • -0.042f, -0.025w or -0.03c p/s per villager

-10%/+60% meansā€¦

  • +0.0204exp p/s per villager

  • -0.084f, -0.05w or -0.06c p/s per villager

So, as the value of export is about 1.5ā€”1.95 any other resource (depending on the army bought), then is no way near the value granted, worth, the resources loss because of that increase, for example, even in the best case wich is in the case that 100% of your villagers are gathering wood and with the 5%, then for it to be a neutral trade, no gain, no loss, the export should worth 0.025/0.0119=2.1 so as it actually worths less than that, is a loss. So almost always it has to be in 0% but if you want to gain more export for some reason, even if i donĀ“t recommend change the normal 0%, the second best is the 5% because for a 5% loss it gives 35% gain wich is 5% more than the 10% that should give 70% to be as good as the 5% but gives only 60% so the 10% option is basically the worst.
The 1.5ā€”1.95 worth of export by other resources is taken by the banner armies that can be bought, since is the whole point of comparing export to other resources, just related to the unit cost. The smallest armies, the ones that cost 400exp are the ones were the export value is the worst because is normally 1.5, meaning that for 400exp you gain military units worth 600 resources, although there are some wich are worse (portuguese 7 besteiros, 560 resources) and some that are better (french 4 grenadiers, 720 resources). The army costing 800exp values export more, and the 1600exp army values it even more, normally, and the most value is the russian 1600exp army wich is of 9 Kalmuck [Dragoons] and 3 Culverins, of 3120 resources, and in this case, export reaches a value of 1.95 of other resource.
Now, obviously it depends in the particular cost of each army because of the particular food, wood or coin cost of each unit, so it will vary, for example, some Dutch armies give ruyters wich are very heavy on gold, or even doppelsoldners wich are too, so it can be worth even more, thatĀ“s why further investigation and analysis of every particular banner army is needed in the futureā€¦

-5%/+35% should be:

  1. -5%/+82.3529411764706% for neutral gain/loss in smallest (400exp) armies with food opportunity cost
  2. -5%/+49.01960784313725% for neutral gain/loss in smallest (400exp) armies with wood opportunity cost
  3. -5%/+58.82352941176471% for neutral gain/loss in smallest (400exp) armies with wood opportunity cost

-10%/+60% should be:

  1. -10%/+164.7058823529412% for neutral gain/loss in smallest (400exp) armies with food opportunity cost
  2. -5%/+98.0392156862745% for neutral gain/loss in smallest (400exp) armies with wood opportunity cost
  3. -5%/+117.6470588235294% for neutral gain/loss in smallest (400exp) armies with wood opportunity cost

Japanese Red Seal Shipment Card seems to have a 0.83 convert rate from coin to export.
Considering export have an estimated value of 1.5ā€”1.95 of other resources, converting all coin in 83% of it in export means that, as the minimum value of export is 1.5, the card would be granting at least 124.5% of resources out of the 100% coin, wich is, ignoring food/wood/coin production opportunity cost, a 24.5% gain in resources, but as in Treaty, wich is where would be normally or most often used this card, you already have a lot of export, you would be wanting to buy more of the 1600exp armies, that means that in those cases, the value of export would be around 1.85 so for the 83% would be theoretically 153.55% of normal resources, so a 53.55% of gain overall, when most convert cards just give around 25% of gain, although, as it is only available for the japanese, and japanese donĀ“t really need the consulate as it already has very good and strong units, itĀ“s not that useful of a card, one of the only usages, as many already know, is for the hatamoto samurai, and can be a viable strategy, but not because of the particular strenght/cost of the hatamoto itself, but rather, for the generous convert rate.

Chinese Dowager Empress Card seems to have a 1.60 convert rate from export to coin.
This card can be good, because although the value of export could be even as high as 1.95, and in this card is setting the value of export in 1.6, it still can be worth it because if you are not going to use export then is coin for free, although chinese consulate is one of the bests, and for example getting a super OP heavy cannon every time you can could be even better, so i would say itĀ“s better to use the consulate, but if you are not going to use it then it could be good. Also, if you are not using your consulate to train units, and only to gather export to convert it into coin, then you should use the 5% option, because the 0% option gives you normal coin from it, and the 10% option gives you:
-0.1 x 0.34 = -0.034 ā€”> -0.034 x 99 = -3.366 coin every second, although it grants:
+0.6 x 0.034 = +0.0204 ā€”> +0.0204 x 99 = +2.0196 export every second, wich can be converted to:
+2.0196 x 1.6 = +3.23136 coin for every second produced, so there would be a loss of:
+3.23136 - 3.366 = -0.13464 coin for every second used to produce coin, wich is less than the 0%, but the 5% gives a little bit more than the 0%, because:
-0.05 x 0.34 = -0.017 ā€”> -0.017 x 99 = -1.683 coin every second, although it grants:
+0.35 x 0.034 = +0.0119 ā€”> +0.0119 x 99 = +1.1781 export every second, wich can be converted to:
+1.1781 x 1.6 = +1.88496 coin for every second produced, so there would be a gain of:
+1.88496 - 1.683 = +0.20196 coin for every second used to produce coin.

And for a final thing about this two convert cards, if it were possible to gave export to teammates asian civs like the other 3 resources, then japanese-chinese could make a little profit out of these two cards, chinese gives all its coin to japanese, then japanese converts all its coin and chinese coin into export, then gives all the export to chinese, and then chinese converts all the export into coin, and they split the profit between the two, but obviously depending on who gave more coin and how much more, etc. but at the end although its not to much, thereĀ“s still a profit of something like 6.2% more coin, wich is not really worth the trouble hahah but would be fun, so if they actually implement export trade between asian civs they maybe should buff this cards a little hehe; or better yet, make an asian team in 3v3 treaty with indian, japanesee and chinese, then all civs gather only food and all give all the food to the Indian, he converts all the food of the team in coin, and then he gives it to the japanese, and the same process xd.

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Great analysis. If this is resolved, India will have no need to build cannons, and will be able to obtain them through the consulate.

Another thing that would improve the Indiansā€™ thirst for wood would be to fix the grazing card by making it affect cows as well and moving it to industrial age to make it a more powerful card.
You could also have an ā€˜infinite mango groveā€™ card.

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With a build limit like the native infinite cards, so that, at a time, at max 2 or 3 mango groves can exist.

Brilliant analysis by @SecretHunter91