Tughlaq Dynasty

Aye the Elephant civ!! Finally :grinning_face_with_smiling_eyes:

The designs feels like me and the devs share a vision!! I love how the factions has so many different perks and plays almost opposite to Delhi!

But let’s address the :elephant:s in the room…. a lot more tuning is needed that will take time..

Healer elephants are too tanky IMO for their cost. Either nerf their HP (350hp )or nerf by increasing their cost (420res, 170f 250g).

Raider Elephant are not good units :face_with_peeking_eye:. The trample button animation locks the units which allows the targets to get away. You can cancel the animation by timing the activation to be immediately as you execute an attack, but it’s still janky. While still on the trample ability, it only shines in forced, no kiting combat, however the elephants are so big with and with only a 0.75 melee range they run around a lot attempting to reach a target. If this civ is gonna have zero ability to catch raids they should have a stronger raider Elephant . Glided horseman have all better stats than Raider elephants except range armor and not having a special ability :pensive_face:. I’m gonna pause here on this unit, because I can make a separate post on this unit and it’s lack of synergy and clear advantage.

Tower of Victory is in a horrible place, one because DOF is PEAK, but also because it’s benefits are essentially differed since going Tower of Victory locks you out of Healer Elephants in feudal, but if one is to consider FC or semi FC, that would be even more reasons to go DOF….for quick relics. TOV needs clear incentives.

The governors are good, some numbers can be tweaked and optimized.

Ballista :elephant:s are horrid. They offer almost no advantages over regular springalds? Costs 2.6 times as much, takes 2.25 longer to train, same DPS, has more counters, less effective HP per cost vs range enemy. Slightly faster than springalds but not really kite worthy (which is fine for not having yet another broken mech but still the slight speed bonus is meh). It’s not until you get to IMP with full upgrades that you get an overly priced yet decent unit. ALSO the House of Learning buff that gives elephants 30% more bonus dmg DOES NOT work on Ballista Elephant??

TBC…

About Dome of Faith, it’s good due to how good and fast you can get healer elephant. By nerf healer elephant or make them trainable only after age III then it won’t be issue.

About Trample ability on elephant, what if make it like Cataphract from Byzantine that run over while dealing damage? That would solve most issue. Also, elephant run over soldier is quite correct in historical wars.

As for Ballista elephant, Isn’t it be healed by healer, not villager repair? In term of hp per cost, it might not good but have higher hp with a bit more speed is making it retreat to get heal back more safely and safe cost.

This Civs isn’t designed for units trade; more like Delhi Elephant comp, high pop effective but resource ineffective. You want to preserve elephant unit as much as possible.

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I don’t disagree these costly units should be persevered but that’s more reasons why TOV is trash bc you don’t get any advantages to save or make your units last longer, even with no healer elephants, DOF offered you standard imams in feudal.

Likewise, for the cost of 2 horseman, you get less HP than 2 horseman or a glided horseman, with the only advantage being range armor vs range units? But with not enough speed to negate kiting and not enough range to fix patching issues, raider :elephant: spend most their time chasing archers that can’t be reached, you’d be more efficient and less headache to mass healer elephants with archers and slow roll the enemy……very very very very LAME, but raiders are not good IMO.

Now if they instead FLIPPED the HP of raider Elephants with Healer elephants??? 400 to raiders and 230 to healers?? you’d have a reasonable Frontline unit that has a clear counter with a delicate and slow healer that needs protection given the high cost. THIS WAY forward charge is powerful but retreats would cost you all your healers?

Agreed healer elephants need a nerf, also the raider elephant is terrible stats for its cost, the only thing it has going for it is the ability as it disables collision so you can walk right through 20 enemy spearmen and kill the enemy siege.

Raider elephant and tower of victory both need significant buffs, as you said ballista elephant is also shit and need a major buff, also why is there no tower elephants?

Also once healer elephants are nerfed the civ definitely needs some compensatory buffs because otherwise it is weak. Forts are only good if you first go compound of the defender to reduce their cost to 340 stone otherwise they are too expensive. Also a lot of the governors are underwhelming, the extra HP for cav governor is ok on raider elephant and lancer but dreadful on the war elephant, instead of just HP it should be a percentage of HP so it also benefits the war elephant, as it stands it gives the war elephant like 2% HP.

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Did some more testing and I’m convinced the civ was designed around healer elephants….which is bad bc it forces you to always go DOF….

So either unlock mosque before castle or this civ needs new syngery.

healer elephants have splash damage?? I wonder if it scales with their increase attack?? :thinking: The unit is just too strong and central to be locked behind Some of Faith.

Castles are competitively priced. they cost less than 2 fortified Towers with arrowslits.

Another bug, the HoL tech that grants 30% more bonus dmg to elephants ONLY works for raider Elephants. It doesn’t work on War nor ballista elephants.

For the forts it’s not just the base price but you also want to upgrade them 2 times to get the governor benefits, as it stands without compound of the defender it costs about 300 res more than a normal keep. I think it is more of an issue of how poor some of the governor choices are though if they were worth it then fine but + 50 HP on a war elephant is worthless and you need to spend like 1200 res to get it.

I think the design was supposed to be focused on the forts and governors but healing elephants are so broken that nobody even bothers with the forts. There’s so much that needs changing, tower of victory needs to be buffed so there’s an actual choice of landmarks, let it unlock tower elephants would be my suggestion and boost the attack speed increase as elephants have such slow attack speed to begin with that the 15% is not very impactful.

Let’s address ToV…

We need to come up with an incentive for players to NOT go DoF. So let’s list all the benefits of DoF that we have to compete with:

  1. only access to feudal healing
  2. Only discount to healers
  3. Allows for immediate relic and site grabs on castle age up
  4. Healer elephants (even when they finally get nerfed) gives this civ GOLD use in feudal outside research
  5. Allows for versatility, the landmark is not a dead giveaway what your macro is gonna look like, you can do all things from DoF.

So ToV needs to either match incentives “band for band”:joy:, or have something STRONG?

I got it! (Had to sleep on it)

There isn’t a need to reinvent the concept we’ll just extend and copy!!

ToV will now operate as a stable! Will continue to extend influence to other stables, offer the 15% attack speed and 5% movement speed, will have researchable techs

  1. Trample gains +1 dmg
  2. Regen that activates during trample

Now this isn’t out right better than DoF, but it gives elephants a STRONG tech pathway that is not necessarily centered around slow healer elephants.

Raider :elephant:

This entry will focus on my observations and suggestions on how to change this unit, IF we should change this unit??

First off, the Trample ability on this units offers 4 true damage every 0.5s in a small radius around the elephant for a total of 6 seconds of activation. However the damage accumulate on the enemy targets only amounts to 40 dmg?? Which means we lose a whole second of dmg?? Why??? I thought this issue was already addressed with French knight and the buff they get immediately after a charge?

Next issue with Trample is the animation lock? This isn’t the first ability introduced into the game? Why is it I’m not remembering an animation lock with other abilities? It looks cool but loses in functionality with the lock. You can get around the lock by activating the ability immediately after an executed attack, but still?

Now the good about trample is villagers CANNOT stand and fight this light cav. They have to seek shelter or risk losing 40hp inside 6s, the whole lot of them!! Also since this unit has +3 range armor and a huge HP pool, it can maneuver under enemy TC and enemy wood lines with impunity. And there are several ways currently in game to buff this unit to make it even better at raiding specifically.

(Working on a build that I’ll share once I get the numbers right)

But for now, I redact my earlier statement that suggested this was a bad unit. It has an issue, yes, but…. I see a lot of potential!! If what I’m trying to eke out pans out!? I won’t be surprised if it gets nerfed along with the eminent healer elephant nerf.

You forgot to mention that there is another animation lock once the Raider Elephant actually hits a unit with its charge. And that the Trample damage does not stack, meaning there are instances where you want to stagger the activation for more damage (2 Raider Elephants sneaking into woodline, one activates first, second after).

They’ve also got one melee armour in Castle, which could be nice against MAA but one melee armour in this game is frankly nothing. I was thinking maybe you could FC and get some melee armour upgrades for a quick 3 against a Feudal opponent, but Spears having bonus damage against Raider Elephants (in addition to Culverins/Bombards) makes them really vulnerable as these bonuses were originally meant to target super high health Elephants.

They also get run down by Knights, which regular Horsemen can run away from. This is kind of a big deal.

You’d think the Trample would make it easy for them to get on top of Archers and Crossbowmen, but it generally stops them long enough for them to get kited and opens up for Spearmen to catch up. Additionally, their 0.75 attack range makes them super susceptible to Spearman Brace, during Trample or just during regular Charge due to their big hitbox. Raider Elephants kind of die before they reach either Siege or regular Archers. Hell, Raider Elephants do not benefit from their high health from Spearmen nor Archers due to overkilling.

At some point you got to ask, what is the point of having a unit with a lot of health if everything has a bonus or advantage against them? This is exactly why Knights are great, as they destroy units in short range even if they get countered, whereas Elephants are designed to always be weak, regardless of circumstance.

The Healer Elephant ironically is a better War Elephant, not only because it deals Splash damage comparable to War Elephant, but because they don’t get immediately obliterated and can sustain themselves (like a tanky unit should!). In addition to that, they can actually cost a reasonable amount. Even without a discount, they’re about twice as cheap as War Elephants, making them actually usable units. And that is without mentioning that they, like a big, costly unit should, actually provide meaningful support to the units around it unlike the War Elephant which for some reason has a Spearman on top (the most common unit in the game) as if this is any useful. I would actually kind of hope to see the Healer Elephant be renamed to Battle Elephant or something, and replace the War Elephant for Tughlaq. Keep the low cost, maybe nerf the healing (alternatively, make them AoE heal with no stacking), making it an actual combat unit that is cost reasonable unlike the monstrosities of Delhi.

The Ballista Elephant is really sucky. Deals far too little damage, and being tagged as a heavy unit sucks. I’m also disappointed that it has no animation, that it reuses Springald asset and that it uses the War Elephant skin rather than say, the Worker Elephant skin.

The House of Wisdom seems very strange, Collateral Damage tech was meant to amplify splash damage originally as I seem to recall this being hinted prior to release. Instead it seems to have been changed to a very niche use case.

And Tower of Victory, frankly, I’d rather have the original one from Delhi. Seeing as Elephants do not in fact fulfill every role of Infantry, perhaps this tech should be way tuned up, like 35% faster attack speed, because it is absolutely useless right now. Remember that this is only for Elephants, for whatever reason.

All in all, my impressions is that I’m not sure what Tughlaq are meant to excel at. The Forts can help them multi TC boom while maintaining some defensive positions, there is some cheese with the Amirs, the extra food is nice. But, it doesn’t seem very identity defining, their damage output is actually low for a Keep unless you put units inside of it, but it is still limited to only 10 units and kind of low health for a loooot of stone. The Worker Elephants are cool and I do like how they allow you to acquire Shoreline Fish very cheaply (as they will follow the Shoreline Fish route automatically with villagers), same with forests and Deer, but Tughlaq don’t have a clear economic boost that makes them stand out in any meaningful way. In fact, they have to spend more resources on technologies.

Nor do they have a clear powerful military strategy or benefit. The Healer Elephants sounded nice, but they’re suppoused to be support units. The question is, what are they suppoused to support? Default ass MAA and Spearman? I mean, I really wanted to like the Raider Elephant, but they kind of just suck. Horsemen in AoE4 have always kind of sucked compared to Archers and Spearmen, and rarely have they been worth massing, and the Raider Elephant is somehow worse than the default Horseman.

So what are they left with? Quick teching. That’s pretty much the one thing they’re good at and likely will get tuned back. Bank some resources, make some units, get into position then in less than half a minute, you will have an army capable of ending the game. And as enjoyable and satisfying as that is, this is meant to be the Elephant civilization which I don’t really feel.

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This is standard for all light cav to have a longer than lancer/knight cd after executing a charge but all light cav have a shorter weapon cool down after a charge compared to their standard attack speed cool down.

I didn’t know that trample damage doesn’t stack? Are you sure it’s not the radius is too small for most units to simultaneously fit in both circles?

This part!! I forgot about this part, but yes raiders melt to spears as a consequence to war elephants…hmmm

I got some more testing to do…..

You’re misunderstanding me. Not cooldown. Animation lock. As in, the Raider Elephant gets “locked” as if stunned when they initial hit an enemy with their charge. This is a feature shared with the War Elephant, which they seemed to simply have copy-pasted as a baseline to the Raider Elephant. The thing is, these are completely different units and this makes it really hard for Raider Elephants to effectively fight their target, Archers.

A regular horseman can hit a target with their charge then run away. Raider Elephant doing so gets locked in a little animation for a few microseconds, so you’re incentivized to NOT let the charge go off, and instead walk over the unit and A-move into them in close range.

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Can we point out just how stupid it is for a unit called “Ballista Elephant” to be given to the Tughlaq Dynasty? Like that siege units belongs to a Khmer civ.

It’s not stupid.
It’s a true fact.

Perhaps it doesn’t have the correct name.
However, the Tughlaq Dynasty also had access to this technology.

Elephants equipped with a weapon equivalent to a “ballista on their backs” were not used only by the Khmer civilization.

We have a colleague who dedicated part of his time to locating this information.
This information cannot be thrown away!

In my opinion, if a more realistic name were to be used, the names should be changed as follows:

  • For the Tughlaq Dynasty, the name should be “Arrada Elephant”
  • For the Khmer civilization, the name should be the classic “Ballista Elephant”.

And here is the research data, carried out by our colleague @GoldenArmorX:

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I’d suggest moving healer elephants to the castle age, DoF can remain the same then and still be useful for feudal healing and quickly grabbing relics. ToV should have it’s attack speed buff increased because elephants already have a really slow attack speed. I also like a small movement speed buff.

Aside from that all the new elephants need rebalancing, raider and ballista elephants are shit and healer elephants are too strong, so buff the first 2 and nerf the last though I think just moving the healer elephant to castle with the same stats would be enough.

I do agree with this. While the Tughlaq Dynasty can keep the elephant unit that has a Ballista equivalent weapon, the name just needs to be changed while the Khmer civ can use the name “Ballista Elephant” for its own elephant unit that replaces the Springald.

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Healer elephants are slow and they at tagged as heavy’s so in castle they melt to crossbow blobs EVEN with their 450hp. They should reduce the HP to 350 in feudal then return it to 450 in castle.

I like the concept behind the versatility of forts and their perks. I’ve tried the 2TC fort build and have seen a Beasty game doing the same. It’s very very expensive; it’s akin slightly to a cheaper old China 2tc song, where the perk is variable (faster vil production or something else of your choosing). But again that’s 1175 resources with over 4mins of build time (castle age up time). Next the faster you make vils the faster you deplete your natural food. That’s a lot of defending….. for highly skilled defensive players, it fits their playstyles but it’s by no means easy (Beasty lost that game bc he didn’t scout enemy comp, he was busy reacting and macro’ing, so how much harder would this play style be for us??)

Edit:

I just played fort 2 tc vs Japanese FC and new Mongol FC, they got all the relics , Japan TC on the backend, meanwhile new mongols hit me with a timing.

2TC in general, but especially with this civ, leaves you too expose to playing on the back foot. IMO the better way to attempt the 2TC requires you NOT to immediately chase the FC but play extended feudal to deny relic and throttle the FC’ers gold/food….but then you risk being trapped in feudal with only Healer elephants as your only castle unit….which gets deleted by crossbows.

Forts

It’s best I keep the posts separate and update each individually with topic specific ideas.

The fort tech that gives sites and relics a flat 20% bonus then has a tier system of buffs for healer elephants granting zeal. This implementation should be shared by the options. Which is to have a flat bonus then also a tiered bonus system.

For example the last fort tech that offers a discount on research tech should have as a flat bonus a discount offered to AGE UP COST!! Likewise the cav fort tech that offers HP should give all cav a +1/1 armor or a flat speed boost of 5%. The farm flat bonus should make All forts are drop off locations. And so on and so on.

The 2tc with the faster vill production governor seems viable to me, getting to level 2 governor will get you the same vill production speed as chinese 2tc song and it costs like 170 res more to get the 2nd tc, fort and the first upgrade for the fort. In the end you are left with same vill production at a slightly higher cost however you have a fort rather than just a barbican and the fort with just the 1st upgrade provides far more protection.

This bonus from the Tughlaqabad Fort is not being applied to bonuses. Most effects worded this way tend to apply to bonus damages, so I assume this is an error. Otherwise a measly +2 to your Spearmen is really bad for such a heavy investment.

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You’re forgetting a few things. To begin with, China is gathering resources faster due to Imperial Official, they build twice as quickly, cutting down the downtime on building TC and Fort, AND you each Fort upgrade takes an additional 30 seconds to complete.

You’re paying more, doing it slower and being more vulnerable throughout it all considering you don’t have China’s Handcannon Slits on your TC.

Is it possible to do? Sure, in the same way that it is only possible for China when the opponent and circumstance allows for it. It just happens to be easier to pressure Tughlaq into forfeiting and it puts a few things into question.

A civilization like Abbasid can reach 3 TC cheaper and more efficiently, but they actually have multiplicative economic bonuses that makes having loads of villagers worth it. Same for China. Tughlaq in general gets fewer economic bonuses than even base civilizations (5% drop off in Dark Age, 10% drop off & 5% gather in Feudal, 15% drop off & 10% gather rate in Castle and 20% drop off & 15% gather rate in Imperial for a total of 35%).

Most civilizations get 45% with all bonuses (with the exception of food as of recent nerfs). This is suppoused to be balanced by how efficient the Worker Elephants are, but I’m skeptical of this sort of balancing. Compare that to the 20% bonus China gets from IO, 20% from Ancient Techniques and 20-30% from Granaries, or Abbasid’s 28% villager gather rate to all plus another 15% to farms. These are very different economies to bounce your massive villager economy off.

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