Tweaking the Burgundians

Age of Empires II: DE II - Discussion
1

As you know guys, the most OP civ in the game now clearly is the Burgundains, the civ is OP all the way, their economy, their UTs, their discounts and their bonuses.
So I have here some suggestions that will make this civ more balanced rather than being OP, there are here many syggestions, so I am not saying we will take them all, what I say is, choose what you think it will be good for the balance in your opinion, I have here 8 options so think and choose:

1- When you research the Flemish milita, you will lose half of your food in the stockpile (or all of it), this will make coming back is harder after researching this tech.

2- Burgundians no more have eco techs age before, and the discount will be 40% not 50%.

3- Burgundians economy techs discount turned to 35%, 30%, 25% dark, feudal, castle with being age before.

4- Flemish militia no more turn all the vills to militia, but spawn 50 militia from TCs (whatever the numbets of TCs) and make the militia be able to training from houses.

5- Flemish militia tech make all militia training from houses without any spawn or turning vills.

6- Relics now generate food by 20f/min not 30/min.

7-Vineyards cost increased to 600F, 400G.

8- Since hand cannoneers received a buff for their accuracy, I think the Burgundians bonus should be 20% more power for gun powder not 25%.

If you want to ask me what would you choose, then I will pick 3, 6, 4(or 5), 7. These options are good imo.

2

i prefer to make militia tech dirt cheap and just make it so flemish militia unlocks ability to train militia, and upgrade villagers at a cost of 10-20 food and 25 gold.

50% is fine if its not age before.

this is fine but i question if people would actually get DBA and HC in dark age.

too much like first crusade.

and now their only decent siege option is worse.

3

Yeah good suggestion.

Even with not being age before, 50% is OP.

They can.

Except it is imp tech.

So in general what points you will choose and what is not? I mean I said that I have 8 options so choose what seems fine.

4

why? we literally have vikings who get free wheelbarrow, civs who have faster working tcs, cheaper villagers, no wood cost on upgrades for an archer civ, but saving 50% food is OP? we even have a civ that saves more and more resources on ALL TECHS the further they age up (Chinese), but somehow 50% food on eco techs only is a problem?

they can afford it absolutely - but is it worth actually getting? do you get enough return on investment to make it worth picking up the tech? specifically talking DBA here.

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5

Because all eco techs cost food more than wood, and food is more important than wood in early/mid game, so 50% even without age before is still tough. The other thing I don’t think the devs will back from the original design, I mean I don’t think they will delete being age before, so imo option 3 will be the best.

Yes you do, you will still have the advantage and 35% in dark is good discount.

If you want to ask me what would you choose, then I will pick 3, 6, 4(or 5), 7. These options are good imo.

6

Or just remove that stupid tech alltogether. Quick and simple solution. I mean the devs could just admit that the whole design idea of that tech is bad instead of akwardly trying to fix it. It just doesn’t fit the game. Instead add something that gives the civ more diversity. Atm Burgundian military is all about cavalier/paladin, flemish militia and bbc. That’s a bit too narrow imo.

Note that it’s only food. The resources saved is pretty little compared to what they do now with having these one age earlier. Still a good eco bonus but totally fine imo.

3 Likes
7

I don’t mind :slightly_smiling_face:

Hmmmmmm I prefer option 3.

8

They won’t remove that tech cuz Cysion is Flemish.

9

and yet we have civs that literally save 100% of wood. on a civ that uses wood for its army.
costing more or not, wood is what the civ fundamentally uses for its actual army.

and still not as good as a civ like Franks who gets faster food income from berry’s coupled with free farm upgrades.

let’s be real here - especially if you’re talking no more age before the only upgrades that are really going to standout is the first two mill upgrades, the first two lumbercamp upgrades (and the second one barely), and WB/HC. which is a savings of 100 food on the mill upgrades, 125 food on the wood upgrades, and 237 food on WB/HC. compare that to the savings of a civ like Chinese, or a civ who is saving on villagers like Indians. it isn’t much at all.

not really - in a game where viper literally got the upgrade as fast as humanly possible, DBA only brought in an extra roughly 60-70 wood. and that was at 50% discount. he couldn’t get it that fast at 35%, needing an extra 15 food and probably delaying it a good 30 seconds, so the question is, is 65 food going to be worth the extra 50-60 wood he gets? based on your earlier statements the answer should be no.

two options then.
1)

or
2)

1 Like
10

I didn’t suggest to remove it, just a tweaking, imo it is fine to keep it if the tech will get a good and balanced change.

11

40% discount without age before is still good discount at all stages in the game.

But as I said my options are:

3, 4 (or 5), 6, 7.

12

As you know guys, the most OP civ in the game now clearly is the Burgundains,

No… just no… Chinese Azetcs Vikings are both more op than Burgundains.

Burgundains definitely is strong civ but can we fix Chinese first

13

Yeah I have suggestions for these 3 civs but now Burgundians are priority to nerf imo.

1 Like
14

I doubt so, Chinese are way more op than Burgundians if done correctly.

15

TBF I don’t see Chinese are OP, I mean how they are OP? According to what? They are strong and top tier yes but in which way they are OP? With 3 more vills? Or big tech tree? Or techs discounts?

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16

I don’t know why the gunpwoder bonus would need to be touched tbh, it’s like that one bonus that civ has that feels normal. Burgundian BBC are actually not any better than Spanish ones, and Burgundian HC have less armour than the HC from literally every other civ bar Franks, so they are fine.

Another bonus that could be made more “normal” is the stable technology discount. A 50% discount made sense before the Burgundian had an actual eco bonus, as it was harder to make it through the later stages of the game with a good economy, but now that they do have an excellent economy, that would still be good even after the nerf, they don’t need to have such a huge discount anymore. 33% should be more than enough, and still pretty generous. A compensation could be to lower the cost of the elite coustillier upgrade. After all, the theme of the Burgundians is cheaper cavalry techs but for some reason the elite coustillier upgrade is waaaay more expensive than the elite upgrades for leitis and keshiks. Nerfing the stable discount and buffing the coustillier upgrade would also make it so that you can actually decide whether paladins or coustilliers is better rather than going paladins all the time because the upgrade cost is so much lower.

17

As I said you have 8 options to choose.

I choose: 3, 4(or 5), 6, 7.

18
  • 2 vills lead
  • tech discounts
  • versatille tech options (cavs and/or archers are both ok)

I mean if you dont see Chinese civ pickers in ~1800 elo games you are not in AOE game.

19

Insane economy, insane discounts, diverse tech tree with the ability to easily swap on the fly.
the pros consider them one of, if not the best civ in the game.

1 Like
20

I will try to write a topic about them, but what do you choose from these 8 options about Burgundians?