? ? ?
No you wont. Halbs will do as well as they do against Frankish paladins
Nvm. The test SotL did seems sketchy (the diference isnt natural) but fine.
How is that sketchy and not neutral? You want to see bigger scale like 30 knight line vs 50 Helb?
The snowball effect seems too exagerated imo. I doubt SotL would cheat but the way it happened is weird (more seems like an exception)
The only way to find it is doing your own test. I donât have the time right now. So used AOEcombat simulator instead. You need 17 Halb to successfully win against 10 Teutons/Franks Paladin as well as 10 Sicilians cavalier.
Viper was quite against the extra PA on Howdah, making them living rams, OP as hell in TGs, while also not adressing their problems in 1v1
Sicilian change is also terribly designed, and just broken, a cavalier will need 70 shots to die from arbalest, also they take 50% less damage, imagine gen crossbows⊠good luck.
Cuman change is just randum and not measured for other maps.
3 Likes
I meant it more in a âIm not accusing SotL of cheatingâ way. Anyway, seems like an interesting result
I think thats not as good as you make them to be outside against Gen Xbow but the UT will probably need to be more expensive. The civ will still probably suck early game.
Yeah, thats the more scary part imo. Its a big buff
Omega broken as you say it.
On top of that +100 stone for a civ that can drop castle like building a house. Good luck defending your base at 15 min in Arena.
Have a feeling it will be OP in wallable maps especially if it is hybrid (e.g Scandinavia). Double TC + Fish boom into Castle into 3 or maybe 4 stable knight.
1 Like
I donât know why there is so much negativity about the new changes.
I think thereâs a lot of great ideas here.
Iâm happy to see steppe lancer and hand cannon buffs.
Iâm going to list in detail why Iâm overall fairly pleased with the changes.
Feel free to ignore the post of a nobody like me. 
Burmese-
Burmese have had probably the worst battle elephants ever since the Howdah nerf ages ago.
The devs have been trying to avoid giving them the extra archer armour techs, instead trying to give them more alternate ways to deal with archers other than skirmishers. I think itâd be boring to buff them in some typical way by giving leather archer armour so they play more like a stardard civ. Burmese struggle a lot these days now that the arambai have been rightfully nerfed, while still having a very pronounced weakness to archers. Elephants are still very hard to open with and upgrade compared to knights, so they really did need some kind of incentive for a Burmese player to make them. Theyâre pretty low in terms of win rate, so I donât think the buff is unjustified.
Byzantines-
I feel like people have been asking for free town patrol for a decade.
Itâs nice they finally have it but itâs not enough to buff the civ imo.
They need more.
Chinese-
If the Chinese 10% farm food bonus works by compounding the extra food given by farm techs, then I think itâs a great way to nerf the civ without it being a massive nerf. It was one of the strongest team bonuses in the game, and itâs still strong but it doesnât help out as early. Civs with only heavy plow like Chinese only get -7.5 food from farms in the late game, but civs with crop rotation get +10 food from the bonus. Sure itâs not as useful in the late game but itâs better than the bonus being nerfed completely to give less food in all ages. I think itâs an interesting approach to nerfing the civ.
Cumans-
I get how the Cumans change is sort of meant to make it easier to build the extra TC or a siege workshop in Feudal but I think itâs a little uncreative.
Better than nothing I suppose.
Cuman Mercenaries really needs to be changed.
Lithuanians-
No blast furnace for Lithuanians, that is huge.
It seems mainly to address the new winged hussar and the very strong Lith paladin, since the damage output of the leitis was technically unchanged.
I think this is ultimately a good change and should encourage armies of skrims, leitis and light cav, rather than just making knights.
Itâs a bit of a big nerf to their halberdiers though.
I get how this pushes you more to use the leitis as an anti-cavalry unit, but itâs going to hurt the halb a lot in trash wars.
This might be too strong but itâd be great if they received plate mail armour to compensate.
Maybe thatâs too much compensation because of Tower Shields, but itâd be nice if they could still hold onto that title for high quality trash units.
Give the civ more identity outside of making cav every game.
Malians-
I really really like Malians and I think theyâre a great civ.
I only bring that up to help show that I do understand how this change to Malians is a nerf in the early game, but a buff in longer games.
Itâs not a huge nerf because you can still purchase the mining boost and the buff is stronger than the nerf is.
I personally see it as a good change overall.
Sicilians-
Sicilians really needed some buffs and Iâm so glad we got some.
Extra stone at the start is great, should help with more Feudal aggression with serjeants.
Scutage could be really good and net you 2000+ gold if you combined it with First Crusade, but Iâm so glad itâs gone.
Both their unique techs could be good in very specific occasions but ultimately made their civs weaker.
1/2 armour for knights is huge and should make them a lot more worthwhile in Imperial Age.
If games went to Imperial Age, civs with hand cannoneers and bombard cannon could really mess up your infantry and siege and you didnât have an especially good response to it.
Civs with really good infantry and superior siege could mess you up as well.
Cavaliers werenât really worth making based on just how good archer civs would perform against them and how halbediers were still very cost effective.
Now at least, youâre not pigeonholed into making infantry and siege in the late game and you have some options.
Great change.
Now we just need to get rid of First Crusade and replace it with a proper infantry buff.
What the hell is with that team bonus though?
Thatâs so weird.
I think they needed a new team bonus but the change they made is so strange.
Not a fan of that.
2 Likes
Well, elephants have been greatly nerfed since then so they wonât be the same as when they originally had the extra PA
The only way to buff them 1v1 is to give archer armor which makes them more generic.
2 Likes
Assuming the Sicilian hauberk tech goes through, the interaction with halbs that currently exists remains unchanged. Most camels also remain unchanged in any significant way. Most civs donât even need halbs to beat an 8 pierce armor cavalier:
- Aztecs: Garland Champs
- Berbers: Cheaper camels, camel archers
- Britons: Longbow + halb
- Bulgarians: Bagains ths, stirrups cavalier
- Burgundians: Flemish Militia/Paladin
- Burmese: Buffed champs, elephants
- Byzantines: Cheaper halbs, cheaper camel (maybe)
- Celts: Halb (+ buffed siege)
- Chinese: Chu ko nu, camels
- Cumans: Paladin
- Ethiopians: Halb (+ buffed siege)
- Franks: Paladin
- Goths: Cheaper champ
- Huns: Paladin
- Incas: Kamayuks
- indians: Imperial camels
- Italians: Elite genoese (25 hits to kill)
- Japanese: Champs
- Khmer: Elephants
- Koreans: Halbs (+ buffed siege)
- Lithuanians: Leitis
- Magyars: HCA/Paladin
- Malay: Elephants
- Malians: Farimba Camels
- Mayans: Halbs
- Mongols: Mangudai, Camel+ Steppe lancer combo
- Persians: Paladin, Elephants
- Portuguese: Halbs
- Saracens: Buffed camels + mameluke combo
- Sicilians: Halbs, Mirror cavalier
- Slavs: Boyar, Druzhina champs
- Spanish: Paladin, Elite Conq
- Tatars: Camel + Steppe lancer combo
- Teutons: Champs, ETK, Paladin
- Turks: Camels. Elite janissary takes 10 hits to kill so that might work too.
- Vietnamese: Elephants
- Vikings: Buffed champs, berserks.
Given that this is a forum for a strategy game youâd expect there would be more discussion of strategies before whinging about something being broken. As long as the tech is priced appropriately it will be in all likelihood be fine.
Also just because a unit performs worse than optimally doesnât make it insufficient.
6 Likes
Cumans:
-Archery Ranges and Stables now cost -100 wood.
Wow thatâs just random and easy to exploit. That discount makes a lot more sense for siege workshops only.
8 Likes
Or siege workshops and stables at least
But they can build SW and train rams in feudal age. -100 is equal to paying only gold for a ram, or investing on an extra farm right away. That snowballs.
If they lose their feudal SW bonus then I guess the discount for both SW and stables is fine imo.
Im more talking about how cheaper archery ranges doesnt fit at all Cumans
In that case, only stables.
My point is that kind of bonus should only apply to one building for cumans.
Two discounts is fine for any other civ, but cumans who can build a TC and WS in feudal could exploit it.
Or reduce the discount a bit. 100 wood â 75 wood.
A new generic civ could get all 4 military building -50/-75 wood. If they donât have any other eco bonus, this will be solid. For Cumans, it may feel OP in some maps. For Arabia, it is mostly fine I guess.
1 Like
It fits: steppe husbandry affects CA.
So with this new bonus you can spam CA easily.
Their archery range sucks. Their cavalry archers are only barely better than Persians cavalry archers, it doesnt fit at all
I think it would be fine if it was "all military buildings cost -75 (or maybe even 50 bec of barracks) wood.
This would also enable feudal ram play a bit more.
But Iâm not convinced with that change, it has no synergy with double TC outside of the quickwalling thing.