last patch they buffed outlaws to a point that they are viable in late game with pop reduction card , it was a good change .
they have stat of weak musk for 1 pop and very good skirmsher for 2 pop , even one pop cowboy is weaker than javelin rider , also they cost gold making then not so cheap , with their ability there gives a choice to use them to compliment certain army composition , dont forget u cant only train them by saloon, which u have eother 1-2 .
in upcoming patch they are going 3-4 pop each after pop reduction card , that will just end their use late game , there is no point of using them , even 4-5 pop is too much to use them early anyways , this will be end of any outlaw strat .
only issue was usa who get 3 saloon and instant outlaw and very good eco to back , but usa ia most op civ in treaty anyways outlaw or non outlaw , they need nerf in eco or cost of their units , they have way too much eco for qwality of units they have .
killing outlaws wont fix usa in treaty , but it will just take a option from other civs .
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it was not a good change, the strongest treaty faction got stronger by being able to spam a unit stronger than ashigaru cheaper than a musketeer.
i will admit that 3 or 4 pop might be too much but i think its for the better if the US and mexico dont simply resolve to spamming gunslingers and the dragoon unit (120 gold for that unit is WAYYY too cheap.
2 Likes
This is why cards and techs need more trade off,
so if it reduces pop, should increase cost/ train time.
This should apply to many OP cards and techs…
like Ports mortars, increase range, but decrease range resist.
similarly like how dopples get extra HP and attack but lose speed.
that way things can be made really strong, but have a trade off to also make a counter stronger too.
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agree but making them 3-4 pop with stat of a normal imperial units , will just kill them again and all the good work they did in last patch will be gone .
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outlaws/ mercs should have advantages, but come at cost of diminishing returns. So if they are 30% stronger than a musket, should cost like 50-60% more
Now if used well that can pay off as increased kill ratios of stronger units can really help the eco, but if not protected or used efficiently will end up draining ones eco further.
A card that transforms a 3-4 pop unit to 1 effectively buffs the whole army considerably, which means it should also have a trade off cost with it.
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They already cost 80-120 coin which is costly , they could increase cost , it’s fine . I always suggest of u want to nerf a unit better increase cost or nerf stats a bit , .
Pop cost is the worst nerf possible making a u it totally useless .
Dev’s has history to overnerf units .
Funny thing is on the name of buffing unit , they nerf jaguars stat by 37% with cost reduction of 17% , that unit is now very weak specially late game .
They nerfed bolas stat as well as gave negative multiplier vs infantry . Now bolas are not good in numbers as they are just useless vs anything but cav now with their cost , u better relly on natives now as anycav in treaty .
Now this outlaw nerf .
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I am not sure how much stronger an outlaw is but a musket costing 100 res does does not make it that much cheaper if its considerably stronger in stats, and can increase the kill ratios. A 2:1 kill ratio for instance is like doubling your eco, and halving the effectiveness of the opponents, so its a delicate balance.
sounds like that jag nerf was over done, but they were kinda OP
Have u seen new outlaw stats ??? 300hp and 41 attack musk is not stronger . Than normal musketeer
250 hp and 50 attack skirmisher with 2 pop is not stronger than normal skirmisher in mass .
They are not over powered even with they abilities , but they can be used for fun troll strat . Also remember u can only pop them from saloon , which u have 1-2 .
Also u don’t look cost in resources , u look cost in vill sec , food gather a lot faster than coin , 100 food is cheaper than 100 coin .
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if they are that stats I am not sure why they would need a nerf or have anyone complain about them unless had extreme range or range resist.
So why is there a cry to nerf them now?
Resistance is same as normal units .
There is no cry to nerf outlaws , but there is a cry to nerf usa in treaty , they have too much eco for strong units they have .
There is a troll strat of outlaws as usa , usa can get 3 saloons and instant outlaws , with backed by their eco they can spam outlaw , it’s not a superior strategy in compare to use of normal imperial startegy .
Problem is just usa eco , they have strong eco with strong units . Current usa and euthopia are the two most op civilization .
And sadly Dev’s don’t give a look on them as they have to sell more and more dlc .
There ia incoming bundle usa+maxico , so they are buffing usa even more .
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they are practically an ashigaru musketeer for 85 gold, thats why they are OP.
30% resist with 367 hp and 76 dmg and a cooldown ability that does 114 dmg.
they are OP as all hell.
2 Likes
Ashi have much better stats than what vagrantbloom stated
But what you describe is way OP for the cost and instant train.
if the cost were adjusted it would be fine. but 85 coin is cheap
its still more dmg than all buffed ashigaru, and not far off the HP.
the other issue is that the US is MEANT to be weak vs cavalry, they already have competitive art and the best skirmisher, why do they also need the best musk? the faction need weaknesses and these outlaws removes them.
them costing 2 pop is fair, that way they dont just become spam and win units.
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I play mostly legacy, usually these mercs cost like 2-300 coin. Which makes them usable but for a price
2 pop means there is not much reason to make them.
well mercenaries shouldn’t be viable in treaty unless the faction is designed around it, which the US isnt.
I think there is room to use them but like I said for cost of diminishing returns, basically wagering a power spike for economic drain, if the opponent is using mass skirms or cannon that could be too costly to use if those units cost 2-300 coin for what they are worth.
But instant train should not be a thing, that breaks all counter systems which was a huge problem for France in legacy. that one card ruined the fun of the civ that otherwise would have still been good but not oppressively OP
its kinda ok for Russia because the units are very weak and its not meant to be played as an infantry civ. but just fill in the gaps.
what lol how is this even remotly equal to ashi ? 300 hp 41 demage vs 400 hp 76 demage is almosty double , what r u even rerading ? and 85 coin is not cheap its almost equal to 75 food + 25 food in term of vill sec .
u can compare it to russian musk , not ashi
ur comparasion is just biased and totally wrong
how 85 coin is cheap ?
with 1.25 food rate and 1 coin rate , 85 coin is 85 vill sec
and 75 food + 25 coin is also 85 vill sec .
so a weaker unit that cost equal , how the hell is that unit op ?
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instant train was not the problem even for france .
russia has instant train , is russia op ?
outlaw units have stat of russian units , and cost way more than russian units . so it russia has no issue with instant units , i see no issue in instant outlaws ,
also most important thing , russia has mulytiple, buildings spaming units , but u have only 1-2 saloon , how many area u can cover with 1-2 saloon ? dude play some real game first . then u will know , its noit even important to have instant units . u need instant becoz ur units will die so fast .
if u have any knowlegde of past in legacy france was op becoz of striong stat and area demage od their cav .
u canm easily beat player spamming cav.
andes has every cav inatsnat.
outlaws dont need any nerf at all , they are still weak in compare to impoerial units .
they even need some buff , may be increase saloon to 3 for every civ . one saloon is not enough to even cover ur base , forget about map.
2 Likes
Outlaw units are an interesting part of the game, they’re auxilaries but not good auxilaries army units are better in the long run.
They’re auxilaries since european and asian civs can only get them from from one building which makes them not as useful
You can only have 1 tavern, USA and Mexico can have 3 saloons with the advanced saloon card, Asians can only have 1 monastery and Native Americans don’t get outlaws til fortress age.
Making the pop reduction card for USA Age 4 while it remaining in age 2 for Europe and asia was a fair nerf since USA outlaws are actually useful in Late industrial and Imperial age. Mexico has a similar thing going on as I suspect they also have the peacemakers upgrade.
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