Update December PUP as at 2023-12-08

Age of Empires II: DE II - Discussion
1

Original Source of the PUP
https://steamcommunity.com/app/813780/discussions/25/4038101970208473182/

GAME
Stability & Performance

Fixed a crash that occurred when typing certain numbers on the lobby search bar in multiplayer menus.
Fixed a crash that occurred when attempting to launch the title on Steam when another instance of the game from the Microsoft Store was already running.
Fixed a crash that could occur when playing custom lobbies with AI if the object tracker and world object list got desynchronized.
Fixed a rare crash that could occur when a projectile passes through a Hussite Wagon.
Fixed a rare crash which could occur with invalid waypoints.
Fixed a crash with custom datasets where players using the mod researched a technology with an ID higher than the number of units defined in the data file.

Graphics

Units standing behind Mule Carts now display outlines.
Fixed an issue with snow trails left behind by Mule Carts; they now show correctly when moving in any direction.

Audio

Fixed an issue where Gaia attack notifications would not play on Custom Maps.
Fixed an issue where gunshots from a Persian Castle with Citadels could be heard from too far away.

UI

QoL: The option ā€˜Extended Unit Statsā€™ was added to the Interface Settings. Toggling this setting on will make the command panel show additional stats when selecting a unit or a building.
Keep technology, Watch Tower, Guard Tower, Stone Wall, Pavilion A buildings now have unique icons.
Added blue versions to several small buttons in Return of Rome mode.
If a player selects two production buildings of different types, they can now produce units from the last selected production building.
Fixed an issue where having Steam Cloud enabled would cause significant lag when opening the Location button in Skirmish/ Multiplayer lobbies.
Fixed an issue where the menus would become stuck for a short time if players held backspace.
Fixed an issue with Map Voting where all maps received the same amount of votes, and players votes were not displayed correctly in the UI after placing their votes.
Fixed an issue where Steam users were sometimes not informed of Map Pool Votes.

Settings

Fixed an issue where the Safe Delete pop-up would only trigger if the last unit a player selected was a hero.

Hotkeys

Fixed an issue where Wood Upgrades technology hotkey was not working for Two-Man Saw.
Mule Carts now use both Lumber Camp and Mining Camp configured hotkeys as a fallback (including ā€œSelect Allā€, ā€œGo Toā€ and ā€œVillager Buildā€).

Recorded games & Spectator

Fixed an issue where holding down Shift and left-clicking an object from another player wasnā€™t switching the POV to the objectā€™s owner.

Multiplayer

Changed Enter interaction in menus so that taunts only fire when the Enter key is released, instead of every frame the key is down.
Changed the behavior of Pause during Multiplayer so that players can no longer scroll, zoom or interact with the minimap while the game is paused.

GAMEPLAY

General

Gates can now be locked before their construction is finished.
Deer and other Prey Animals now have more consistency in how long they pause before moving again.
Monks now instantly search for new healing targets instead of waiting for 3 seconds.
Mule Carts are no longer visible in Fog of War.

Fixes

Fixed an issue where Trebuchets would ignore shift commands when attacking buildings.
Groups of Villagers now correctly gather from unused Farms when they finish building a Farm.
Fixed an issue where rams grouped with other units would stop moving before reaching an enemy target when the player issued an attack move.
Monks no longer stop chasing a unit they are converting if that unit stops moving.
Fixed an issue where Villagers would lose their field of view, and Mule Carts (if completed) would become invisible if the player rung the town bell when the Mule Carts were under construction.
Fixed an issue where if a player has converted Monks and then researches Block Printing, the player would be granted vision in an area around the converted Monks the moment the tech finished.
Fixed a rare issue where the Go Back to Work hotkey would sometimes cause Villagers to become stuck inside a building.
Fixed an issue where moving large groups of units would cause some units to stop reacting to group commands.
Fixed an issue where using the Guard command switched units formations to Line Formation.
Fixed an issue where Villagers would stay selected when using CTRL to select military.
Fixed a rare issue where units would slide across untraversable terrain when being patrolled on Stand Ground.
Warrior Priests in no attack stance can now heal allied units.
Villagers no longer can drop off resources into buildings with a Mule Cart garrisoned inside.
A group of Monks can now be shift-queued to pick up and deliver Relics.
Units no longer change direction rapidly when their path is obstructed when the player has a issued Follow command on a unit.
Fixed an issue where warships, especially Galley-line units, would freeze occasionally if the player issued many movement commands.
A Deer will no longer get stuck if the player places a building foundation on them.
Knights on aggressive mode now correctly re-target enemy units if they are attacking a farm and those units walk past.
The game no longer treats Mule Carts as a hard obstruction; this should help pathing around them.
Donjons and Fortified Churches will now automatically target enemy units if they have units queued.
Individual units will now join the formation of larger groups of units that were already moving if the player selects both groups and issues a movement command.
Fixed an issue where formations would not form up correctly after being tasked to move from a patrol or attack move command.
Fixed an issue where when tasking a group to attack a close enemy unit, the faster unit will remain walking slowly with the group of slower units.

Campaign
General

Joan of Arc is no longer able to heal units.

Campaign Missions

Attila the Hun #1: The Scourge of God: Fixed an issue where the wrong dialogue could play after defeating Bleda.
Attila the Hun #6: The Fall of Rome: The enemy factions will now resign correctly and are no longer kept alive by Wonder or Town Center foundations.
Barbarossa #2: Henry the Lion: Player now has the correct population limit.
Bayinnaung #2: The Mandalay Cobra: Fixed an issue where some starting units would disappear shortly after closing the initial Objectives pop up.
Ismail #1: The Red Hats: Farrukh Yasar no longer splits from his army when moving out.
Ismail #4: The Fallen Amir: Shaybani Khanā€™s units, if they have been bypassed, can now track the playerā€™s units and find them more easely.
Ivaylo #1: A Most Unlikely Man: Fixed an issue where a rock formation in the right side of the map was not displayed as expected.
Sforza #4: Blood and Betrayal: Fixed an issue where some gates would not be fully destroyed after reducing their HP to 0.
Suryavarman I #5: Nirvanapada: Fixed an issue where the game statistics at the end of the mission could show negative values.
Tamar #1: Takeover: Armeniaā€™s villagers next to mule carts will no longer walk away to hunt ###### if the player waits before meeting Zakare.
Tamar #3: The Protectorate: Yury will now become aggressive if the player chooses to attack the Turkomans first instead of liberating the city.
Thoros #1: Outlawed: Fixed an issue where players would receive more food in tribute than needed in order to research the infantry upgrades at the start of the mission.
Thoros #3: Caught in the Crossfire: The player is now allowed to research Fereters after advancing to the Imperial Age.
Thoros #4: Bloody Crestwaves: The player now needs to research Fereters on their own (except on Standard difficulty).
Thoros #5: Of Turncoats and Traitors:
The player is no longer attacked by the Byzantines right away after the fleeing to Mleh's camp.
Church Sanctuary achievement no longer requires keeping the villagers alive after they have changed ownership.

Co-op campaigns

Tamerlane #5: Scourge of the Levant: Changed civilizations of Cilician Armenia and Georgia to Armenians and Georgians, respectively.

Balance Changes
General

Monk conversion consistency:
    Monk conversion chance 25% ā–¶ 40%, interval 4-10 ā–¶ 5-9.
    Previously 40% of conversions would happen at either 4 seconds or 10 seconds, creating highly volatile and RNG dependent interactions. With these changes, 80% of conversions will happen between 5 and 7 seconds.
Below are some ancillary changes. Here, the average conversion time remains unchanged compared to before, but now with the more consistent conversion behavior.
    Scout resistance set to +3 min conversion time, +1 max conversion time, +2 conversion resistance.
    Ships resistance set to +2 min, +2 max.
    Teutons resistance set to +3 min, +1 max.
    Bengalis Elephant resistance set to +3 min, +1 max.
    First Crusade resistance set to +4 min, +4 max.
Developer Note: ā€œThe goal of the conversion change + supporting changes is to keep the average conversion time the same but reduce the variability, creating more consistency in how long it takes conversions to occur. Our aim is to reduce the frustrating elements of conversions while keeping the relative power level the same.ā€
New Technology available in the Castle Age for all civilizations at the Monastery: Devotion. Required for Faith.
    Devotion (100 food 150 gold): unit conversion resistance set to +1 min, +1 max. (Units are 15% harder for enemy Monks to convert)
    Faith cost decreased from 750 food 1000 gold ā–¶ 550 food 750 gold.
    Faith conversion resistance set to +4 min, +4 max. (Units are 50% harder for enemy Monks to convert).
    The combination of Devotion + Faith is equivalent to the previous version of Faith.
Dromon projectile attack rebalanced to deal equal damage with all individual projectiles instead of full damage on a main projectile with mostly cosmetic secondary projectiles.
    Damage reduced from 50 ā–¶ 8.
    Bonus damage vs. Buildings reduced 135 ā–¶ 34.
    Bonus damage vs. Siege reduced 20 ā–¶ 2.
    Bonus damage vs. Castles 0 ā–¶ 9.
    Increased projectile spread area.
Dromon train time 50 seconds ā–¶ 65 seconds.
Siege Engineers properly increases Petard bonus damage vs Castles and Walls.
Cavalier upgrade time reduced from 100 seconds ā–¶ 80 seconds.
Mule Carts are now targeted with lower priority than units (same as other buildings).
Mule Cart cost 100 wood and 20 food ā–¶ 80 wood 20 food.

Armenians

Galley-line fires two projectiles Civilization Bonus changed ā–¶ Galley-line and Dromons fire an additional projectile.
Galley-line secondary projectile changed to always be an arrow for better readability of the bonus.
Warrior Priest with Relic no longer incorrectly receives extra line of sight from Block Printing technology.
Mule Cart technology bonus increased from 25% ā–¶ 40%.
Lose access to Two-man saw.
Cilician Fleet demolition ship radius improvement reduced from +33% ā–¶ +20%.

Bengalis

(Elite) Ratha Cavalry Archer armor increased from 0 ā–¶ 1.
(Elite) Ratha now deals 20% trample damage in melee mode.

Bohemians

Hussite Wagon HP reduced from 180 ā–¶ 160.
Hussite Wagon main projectile damage reduced from 11 ā–¶ 10.
(Elite) Hussite Wagon train time increased from 21 seconds ā–¶ 26 seconds.

Chinese

Town Center Civilization Bonus increased from +10 population space and +5 LOS ā–¶ +15 population space and +7 LOS.

Georgians

Buildings cost 50% fewer resources to repair Team Bonus reduced ā–¶ Buildings cost 25% fewer resources to repair.
(Elite) Monaspa no longer incorrectly receives extra damage against buildings, archers, skirmishers, camels and Shotel Warriors when grouped.

Hindustanis

Villager discount Civilization Bonus increased from -5%/-10%/-15%/-20% ā–¶ -8%/-13%/-18%/-23%.

Huns

(Elite) Tarkan base movement speed increased from 1.35 ā–¶ 1.4.
Huns now start with a unique scouting horse on nomad style maps once their starting Town Center is completed.

Incas

Military units food discount reduced from 15/20/25/30% ā–¶ 10/15/20/25%
(Elite) Kamayuk food cost decreased by 65 food 30 gold ā–¶ 60 food and 30 gold.

Japanese

Civilization bonus adjusted to Cavalry Archers +2 vs. Archers (except Skirmishers).

Koreans

(Elite) Turtle Ship receives attack ground ability.

Persians

Savar bonus damage vs. Archers reduced from 3 ā–¶ 2.
Savar upgrade research time increased from 150 seconds ā–¶ 160 seconds.
Civilization bonus of cavalry generate 5 gold per kill removed.

Poles

Folwark cost decreased from 125 wood ā–¶ 100 wood.

Portuguese

(Elite) Organ Gun damage decreased from 7 (9) ā–¶ 6 (8).
(Elite) Organ Gun bonus damage vs Infantry and Skirmishers increased from 1 ā–¶ 2.

Vikings

Defeating Warrior Priests with infantry units now correctly generates a gold reward when Chieftains is researched.

Return of Rome
General

Scout cost reduced from 100 food ā–¶ 90 food.
Mysticism technology effect changed from double priest hitpoints ā–¶ priests +20 HP (effect reduced by 5 HP)
City Watch research time reduced from 45 seconds ā–¶ 15 seconds.
Stone Thrower, Catapult, and Heavy Catapult Melee Armor reduced from 0 ā–¶ -2.
Tower build time decreased from 72 seconds ā–¶ 65 seconds.

Carthaginians

Team bonus changed from Fire Galleys +1 Pierce Armor ā–¶ Academies work 20% faster.

Egyptians

Priests range bonus decreased from +3 ā–¶ +2/3 in Bronze/Iron Ages.

Lac Viet

Forager gather bonus decreased from 20% ā–¶ 15% faster Foragers.

Macedonians

House HP team bonus increased from +25 HP ā–¶ +50 HP.

Minoans

Ships cost bonus adjusted from -30% ā–¶ -15/20/25/30% in Stone/Tool/Bronze/Iron Age.

Yamato

Ship HP bonus changed from +20% HP ā–¶ +10/15/20/25% HP per Age.

AI

General

Fixed an issue where AI units were failing to respond to being attacked while attacking a building.
Fixed an issue where AI explorers may randomly stop exploring the map.
Fixed a rare issue where AI villagers could become idle after depleting their resource instead of being reassigned to another available resource.
The HD and CD AIs now properly play Armenians and Georgians.

Pathfinding

Fixed an issue where units would regroup and cycle to the back of their formation with every right click or attack command.
Fixed a rare issue where units would slide across untraversable terrain when being patrolled on Stand Ground.
Fixed several issues with villager pathfinding around resources, especially regarding Mule Carts. Villagers should become stuck less frequently when gathering around a Mule Cart.

Scripting

up-set-attack-stance, up-reset-unit and other related commands now work correctly with all-units-class.
up-reset-attack-now now resets the attack flag to all units and with immediate effect.

Modding

Scenario Editor

Added new trigger effects: ā€œCreate Object Armorā€, ā€œCreate Object Attackā€, ā€œModify Attribute By Variableā€.
ā€œChange Object Civilization Nameā€, ā€œChange Object Player Colorā€ and ā€œChange Object Player Nameā€ trigger effects now reset on the object ownership change, so the new ownership is correctly presented.
ā€œReplace Objectā€ trigger effect now correctly transfers the HP percentage of the original object instead of the absolute HP value.

LOCALIZATION

Return of Rome: Added localized VO for the Legacy Age of Empires campaigns.

Lobbies and Matchmaking

Fixed an issue where players could not select Data Mods when hosting a lobby for the game version they were about to play; instead, it was determined by whether they were in Age of Empires II or Return of Rome.
Fixed an issue where players could prevent a game from starting by holding down any key plus Enter.

Old post is here for reference

13 Likes
3

Overall looks like a very good patch.

really donā€™t like the dromon change tho. makes the building dps higher, the unit dps lower, basically a 100% reskin cannon galleon now with the additional bit that dromons will perform unintuitively poorly against, even modestly well armored targets. It looks like theyā€™re taking the total damage from 50 to 40, so basically from an onager to a mangonel. a mangonel would do 35 damage to a fully upgraded cavalier, but now a dromon would only do 15 damage. 5x as much damage is being blocked by armor now. So an Elite Skirm w 35 hp canā€™t survive a direct hit from a mangonel, which would do 37 damage (40 - the skrims +3 melee armor), but can survive an attack from a dromon as (8 - 3) X 5 = 25 damage. Skirm walks away. A teutonic knight goes from taking 27 damage to 5.

IDK they want to take a unit that was interesting and making it boring and un-intuitive.

5 Likes
4

As someone who is currently stuck on Attila 6 due to bugs, Iā€™m glad theyā€™re fixing it. Itā€™s like they read my mind.

A lot of pros think the Dromon is overpowered, and recent tournament results seem to support this.

2 Likes
6

They are making it water specific unit.

1 Like
7

Donā€™t get me wrong, Iā€™m fine with nerfing the dromon, but i donā€™t like how theyā€™re going about it. I like that itā€™s better vs units and worse against buildings. If itā€™s too good, Iā€™d start by reducing itā€™s building bonus dmg.

FE re-engineered the organ gun cause it was too similar to a janissary. sure it was too strong, but a simple nerf would have fixed that problem. So then it being too similar to another unit was bad. Ok, cool. NP, Iā€™m on board. No reason to have two units needlessly similar to each. sounds great.

Then they turn around and make the Hussite Wagon more Organ Gun like, and now they want to make the dromon more cannon galleon like.

Also really not a fan of the equal projectile idea. Itā€™s fine in concept. I really havenā€™t any problem with the concept. You chuck five rocks, all should do damage. That makes sense. What we had before technically didnā€™t make sense, but result was congruent with the expectation. units in that area were damaged a lot, but less so if it wasnā€™t a direct hit.

But this change as presently implemented leads to some very un-intuitive results. Maybe if they split the damage between regular melee and unblockable armor classā€¦33 is itā€¦then the dropoff wouldnā€™t be so noticeable, in certain matchups. I realize aoe2 isnā€™t a reality simulator, and sometimes units have bonuses that donā€™t make a lot of sense. Like why does a Genoese X-Bow have bonus damage vs cavalry? not historically speaking, but looking at it, itā€™s cost, compared to other units. If aoe2 was your ONLY source of information, what about the genoese x-bow would communicate itā€™s good vs cav? I donā€™t think anything does? Mangudai against siege? Light cav vs monks? condos vs gunpowder?

But you have an onager, or more like a mangonel with newest pupā€™s reduced damage of 5x8 (same as the mangonels 40), and put it on a boat. you spent 15w +15g more AND this mangonel now has +5 range, or phrased another way, +70% range. What about any of that should imply that itā€™d perform only 18.5% as well vs Teutonic Knight or 43% as well vs a Cavalier when compared to the mangonel? Iā€™m not saying it has to perform the same, it can even be objectively worse to a certain degree, but 43%, 18%? Even against skirms itā€™s only 67% as effective.

If FE thought to re-design the conqs damage so that it was randomly only 20% as effective vs certain units as the HC, there would riots in the street.

The fact they want to nerf the dromon is not the problem. Iā€™m 100% on board with nerfing the dromon. I just take issue with them nerfing it in the worst conceivable way. Letā€™s not change the unit in such a way that itā€™s less interesting except for those situations where it then defies all logic.

PS. This last bit is so un-important. No one should take what I say next as a serious argument, Iā€™m just on a roll now and gonna complain about this too lol.

The dromon icon clearly shows itā€™s throwing a single projectile, whereas the mangonel has a group of rocks.

image
image

2 Likes
8

There is no other choice in this case though. You get either one of them, not both. And they are supposed to do the same role.

You also have to consider this is a water unit where every unit is crucial and has a role. For land units, you can have the luxury of tech tree decoration units like Malay cavalier, Teutons CA or Tatars THS and replace them with more viable regional units. Water game play just doesnā€™t allow that.

Iā€™d personally make Dromon a generic unit with mangonel like range and attack.

9

How do people feel about them removing the Persian cav units getting kills earns 5 gold per kill bonus? I know some people werenā€™t a fan of that but I kinda liked it personally.

And do you think a similar concept will appear in the future with a DLC civ?

2 Likes
10

Iā€™m sad itā€™s gone, I really liked it. I get why itā€™s gone, but Iā€™m still sad.

1 Like
11

Iā€™m not convincedā€¦not categorically unconvinced either. From a balancing standpoint yes, having two different units that function somewhat differently makes it harder. Far easier to just say ā€œYeah I know it looks like a mangonel but shut your trap it works exactly like a cannon galleonā€. I do appreciate this aspect.

A counter argument would be cav archers and elephant archers. Theyā€™re mutually exclusive but donā€™t fit the same role. If there were to be a problem with the elephant archer I donā€™t think the solution would be to make it nearly indistinguishable from the cavalry archer.

Iā€™m not convinced that this is the ONLY route, but I will concede itā€™s definitely the simplest and easiest route.

For argumentā€™s sake, letā€™s say that in this case, for whatever reason, the dromon NEEDS to be very similar to a cannon galleon. Itā€™s just too hard to balance otherwise.

Then why not just bring down the blast radius, tighten up the projectile spread and call it a day? if dps needs nerf adjust dmg and atk rate accordingly.

Iā€™d vastly prefer if the Dromon remained unique, but if that is absolutely not possible then Iā€™d at least like the unit to make sense.

Instead though we have this un-intuitive 5x as much damage being blocked by armor so now Teutonic Knights are basically impervious to mangonels so long as theyā€™re on water even tho we know the rocks must have been propelled with more energy cause they go twice as far, logic defying implementation and itā€™s just a bridge too far.

The only reason I can see to implement the dromon change in this way is because FE wanted to buff dromons for Armenians and didnā€™t want the description to be too long. With this split up damage, you can very easily buff armenians in a way that is congruent with the existing verbiage.

Honestly if thatā€™s the case, and I donā€™t know why I havenā€™t thought of this before, Iā€™ve been stewing on this for like two weeks, why not just add one projectile with that extra 20% dmg?

One 40 damage projectile, one 8-10 dmg projectile (8 would be technically 20% but cause armor maybe let it be a smidge stronger so overall dmg is 20% higher, but thatā€™s really getting into the weeds), the rest 1 dmg projectiles. The verbiage is remains tight, is technically truthful, retains the intent of the bonus, and I donā€™t have to ask myself why Teutonic Knights are dromon-proof.

12

Honestly I didnā€™t care for that bonus design-wise. To me it felt like an afterthought. I know some people really liked it tho. I do hope itā€™s used in the future for some civ it better fits with.

6 Likes
13

2
Read my reply again. I knew this was coming and replied accordingly.

Water maps donā€™t allow such variants. A civ must have CG or current Dromon to be a viable naval civ. So Dromon must be a reskinned CG.

That could work. But it will still be a CG variation.

14

Maybe it will become ut in future.

15

It occurs to me, I think there might be some confusion as to how strictly each of us are using the word ā€œre-skinā€.

Allow me to start over.

I do believe that for a civ to be a naval civ, that civ must have some water anti-castle unit. You arenā€™t taking down a coastal castle with galleons, sorry meso civs and cumans. I donā€™t think that the Dromon HAS to be a 100% identical to a CG though. The Dromon MUST be able to outrange castle/towers and MUST be able to take down castles in a reasonably timely manner. So long as those two things remain true I think the dromon serves itā€™s purpose even if there are some differences. The current dromon satisfies those requirements (technically Teuton Castles and Korean Towers outrange dromons after UTs but for the vast majority of cases dromons out range what they need to), and 100% NEEDS to satisfy those requirements. If the Dromon had 8 range it wouldnā€™t function as it needed to. if it only did 25% the dps vs a castle a CG then it wouldnā€™t function like it needed to.

If the dromon was just the CG with a different icon, thatā€™d be a pure re-skin. What we have now with the Dromon is that it fills the role of the CG but has certain pros and cons. Re-balancing the dromon so that itā€™s pros and cons compared to a CG are lessened is not something Iā€™d advocate for. So long as the two basic requirements stated above are satisfied, Iā€™d prefer that the dromon be nerfed in such a way that the pros and cons are accentuated, not diminished.

Right now the dromon dps vs a castle is about 92% that of the CG. I think that can drop to 80% before it starts feeling too weak vs buildings. If the dromon is just waaaay to good vs units then dromon can be nerfed, but still let it be better vs units than an cannon galleon.

Let the Dromon be 20% worse vs buildings but 20% better vs units. approximately. Donā€™t read too much into the exact numbers, itā€™s just the idea.

I believe this is doable and can be balanced and still allow for dromon civs to be viable on water.

NOOOOOOOOOW that Iā€™ve hopefully cleared that up, if for some reason, having the dromon be dissimilar from the CG, while still satisfying those basic requirements, is just too difficult to balance, then Iā€™d understand why FE would push the Dromon to be as close to a pure CG reskin as possible.

Assuming for a moment that the Dromon needs to be as close to a pure re-skin as possible, Iā€™d match CG dps closely, reduce blast radius, and tighten projectile spread.

What FE is actually doing tho is neither of these things. Theyā€™re making the Dromon closer to the CG by reducing dmg and increasing building bonus dmg, but are also doing so in a way that makes it perform un-intuitively poorly in matchups with units that have good or excellent melee armor.

So then it doesnā€™t seem like Dromon/CG dissimilarity is the only reason FE wants to change the dromon. It seems they want the Armenian Navy projectile bonus to also apply to Dromons and for that bonus to result in an approximately 20% buff.

It seems this desire to adhere to the verbiage of the bonus is the impetus behind this split the dmg amongst the projectiles concept. But that very concept is breaking the logic of the unit in many matchups, especially now that the dromon projectile dmg is 8 instead of the previous pupā€™s 10. So I think what they should do instead is leave the dmg unsplit, but then the additional projectile that is added by the Armenian bonus, instead of carrying the 1 dmg of the other secondary projectiles, to have at least 8 dmg. Because that extra projectile will be more affected by armor, it may need a bit more dmg to compensate, so letā€™s say itā€™ll have 10 dmg.

So now, instead of the dromon performing un-intuitively badly against a bunch of units, now itā€™ll perform as expected against everything, and will only be a little weaker than advertised (but still stronger than a generic civ) vs a few units. Boyars, Turtle Ships, Teutonic Knights, and Bulgarian THS with Bagains comes to mind. Their melee armor will overpower the bonus projectile, but the intended dmg from the main projectile would still overpower the melee armor and go through. Basically every other unit in the game should have an appreciable increase in received dmg, and it should average out to be about 20%.

1 Like
16

So many fixes related to pathing are making me hopeful.

17

Ok finally an update from path-finding.

1 Like
18

These patch notes taught me how casters switch perspectives so quickly. I never knew how to do that before. That will greatly help my YouTube videos.

19

What are you talking about?

20

Youā€™re a legend 11. I was gonna say the dromon literally carries a mangonel, so why should it perform such differently than the mangonel. I never noticed the projectile detail.

They should change it to rocks, not a cannon ball.

It makes me wonder whatā€™s the reasoning behind this change. Why not just give all military ships a good amount of melee armor if dromon being good vs other ships is the main complaint.

Btw the change of individual rock damage from 10 to 8 seems to explicitly make a sanctity monk not die to a single dromon shot. Iā€™d rather just give dromons 40 melee attack.

21

Exactly, what is the point of nerfing the dromon in THIS specific way. Itā€™s basically a water onager, if itā€™s just too strong, make it a water mangonel, which theyā€™re kind of doing but in this roundabout goofy way.

actually crunching the numbers I think 11, maybe possibly even 12, would work better than 10. Iā€™m going to use 11 for the examples below.

Doing this instead, a mangonel would do 39 dmg vs a cavalier with 2+3 armor (assuming a direct hit of all projectiles. Itā€™s an unrealistic assumption but itā€™s a simplifying assumption.) A generic dromon would also do 39 dmg as well. an Armenian dromon would do 39dmg + 6dmg more. 15% more. a Halberdier with 0+3 armor would take 39+8 dmg, or 20% more. a halb or skirm missing the final armor, 0+2 armor, would take 39+9 dmg, or 23% more.

And the best part of all of this, is that if FE feels a couple months down the road, the armenian dromon bonus needs to be nerfed or buffed, instead of trying to completely re-engineer the dromon calculation, just nerf or buff the bonus projectile.

1 Like
22

I guess weā€™re on the same page.

Okay, I totally get it now. But I do think Dromon being better against units will be bad for balance as Dromon civs will have more tools on water than non-Dromon civs. Although some of the non-Dromon civs do have a 2nd UU. So you might be right too.

Maybe in the future I wll suggest reducing their attack bonus vs building from 34 (weird number) ā†’ 30 and remove attack bonus vs castle 9 ā†’ 5 but get +2 attack bonus vs ships.