Usac’s Civ Crafting Brainstorms Part 2- Chimu

I know, another Eagle civ? Yes! Let’s fill South America

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Courtesy of Seicing! Go upvote him until he suffocates in butt loads of cash!

Chimu - Hundreds of years before the times of the mighty Inca Empire, a major power known as the Chimor held control of much of the Peruvian landscape. They began close to the Moche river and expanded from there, grabbing a foothold of the Peruvian coast by the 10th Century. With no good rival until the rise of the Inca, the Chimu could convey far and wide with their art and warfare, duked out with the finest copper and bronze weaponry.

Less than a century before the arrival of Europeans, the Chimu were dismantled fully in the year 1470 by Incas but held an empire worthy of giving this game more Eagle using civs.

Chimu (845-1470) An Infantry Civ

  • Dropsites and Houses 2x HP
  • Repairmen work 2x faster but pay nothing extra.

The historical application of both bonuses is that the Chimu are characterized by gorgeous and sturdy architecture. Seems fitting for a defensive bonus.

  • Villagers carry 20% more resouces and move 4% faster per age (cumulative)

At first this bonus was just going to be 30% more food gathered per age (in and including the Dark Age) but then I figured… what if we had a civ without Hand Cart? How would it fare? Could it be done without stealing Viking thunder? I think so, but I’m also convinced Vikings will do fine vs. this civ for other reasons such as better archer access.

In Castle Age the value is, with Wheelbarrow researched, just about on par with Hand Cart civs. Their speed will never catch up to FU Berber villagers. Aztecs they’ll care more than by Age 2, but Aztecs can certainly apply far more early pressure with extra gold and faster training military.

  • Barracks techs cost no gold

The Chimu armies wore bronze armor and wielded bronze maces. Why this effects gold, a completely different metal, and swords/spears is a mystery. In any case, the savings are significant: as the only tech missing is Arson and that’s 50g lost. Compared to the Spanish however, this bonus takes longer to kick in. In fact, the best benefactor techs, Halberdier and Elite Eagle, are very late game techs. By the time that happens, the Spanish will be saving much more gold in the Feudal and Castle Age and enable a far more versatile army. The big issue? This is a later game bonus on a Meso civ which has no horses but it gives you plenty of gold for Eagles.

Team Bonus: Eagles/Militia line +2 LoS (+1 if +2 is too much for Eagles)

There’s no true history behind this. It’s a filler bonus and could go on any civ with Eagle access. It’s also the only direct bonus their Eagles have, other than the 700g saved upgrading to Elite. Swords are tacked on because otherwise you’re boosting like 11 civs in the next 10 years of development at this rate and it will still be only 5% of the game’s civ count at best. On top of that, most of the civs you want to team with probably aren’t looking to have access to Eagles of their own anyway.

Missing Techs

  • Barracks: Arson
  • Archery Range: Hand Cannoneer, Parthian Tactics, Cav Archer, Arbalest. Elephant Archer
  • Stable: Building
  • Siege: Bombard Cannon, Siege Ram, Siege Elephant
  • Dock: Cannon Galley, Fast Fire Ship
  • Blacksmith: Cavalry Armor
  • Economy: Hand Cart, Two Man Saw
  • University: BBT, Heated Shot
  • Monastery: Illumination, Atonement, Heresy, Sanctity
  • Castle: /

A fairly meaty infantry tech tree with good Siege but a lack of Siege Rams and weak monks might be brutal. But the biggest hurdle is probably the lack of Arbalests.

Unique Unit: Camaquen – An armored, decent durable warrior who believes himself possessed of by the spirit of a dead, fallen warrior with a bonus vs. buildings. While somewhat sluggish, and otherwise unremarkable, he takes 0 bonus damage of any kind.
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Camaquen Stats Elite
Hit Points 65 80
Armor 1/2 2/2
Melee Attack 9 12
Attack vs. Eagles 3 4
Attack vs. Standard Buildings 8 12
Attack vs. Stone Defense 9 14
Range melee melee
Line of Sight 5 5
Accuracy 100% 100%
Rate of Fire 2.2 2.2
Movement .8 .8
Cost 65f,55g
Train Time 19s 18s
Elite Upgrade 1000f,725g 50 seconds
Armor Types NONE

So an expensive, yet hopefully viable unit the Camaquen Warrior is slow and armored but not as durable as the Teut Knight (they also costs more), and pretty much forces you to consider raw damage instead of bonus damage. For most civs, this tends to mean archers unless 3/3 base armor is too much. It means units like Leitis and Knight are far more effective than Cataphract although Hand Cannons still do a fair chunk of damage to them as is. 50g per unit is brutal, that’s Eagle Warrior cost! If stats need tweaks, let me know.

Unique Unit 2: Bolasi – Ranged infantry with attack ground and splash damage like a mobile onager. Has minimum range, and considered infantry. Trains from Barracks in Castle Age. Does extra damage to siege and cavalry, making them prime partners for your Xbow armies who they keep up with in movement speed. Min range of 2. In addition, attacks that strike enemies yield a small amount of stone. Simply attacking ground to get infinite stone doesn’t work, actually hit something!

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Bolasi Stats Elite
Hit Points 40 50
Armor 1/0 2/0
Melee Attack 5 6
Attack vs. Standard Buildings 2 2
Attack vs. Cavalry 6 10
Attack vs. Siege 4 7
Attack vs. Eagles 1 1
Range 4 5
Line of Sight 5 5
Accuracy 100% 100%
Rate of Fire 2.8 2.8
Movement .95 .95
Cost 40g/25s
Train Time 24s 23s
Elite Upgrade 800w,400s 40s
Armor Types Infantry, Unique Unit

The Bolas is a very special unit. An infantry with an attack ground button, their best function is to be placed in formations with Crossbows to scare away Cavalry and Siege. While this may sound dominant, the fact is, this unit costs stone and gold, the 2 rarest resources the longer the game goes on! This means every Bolas is precious, meaning enemy archers (possibly not Cavalry Archers) will just obliterate them way cost effectively as wood is better than stone. They’re also not a sure fire Mangonel counter. Mangonels can almost one shot them, so a clump of these guys taking a mangonel shot before they go down (they are out-ranged) means they might not be trading cost effectively. I honestly would need the expert math of an expert player. I’m just the blacksmith making the sword for the sword master who can wield but cannot make. The problem with the Bolas/Crossbow combo is… well you saw the missing techs list, didn’t you?

Bolas have a bonus vs horse because the rope and stones were effective at roping up and breaking unguarded horse legs.

UT1: Braided Leather – Bolas have +1 range, -1 min range and +8 vs infantry. Cost: 200s/200g 25sec

This tech is pretty vital vs Infantry civs. With the discovery of Leather straps for Bolases instead of string you can throw a better Bolas! Without a specialized anti-infantry unit of the other Mesos, this civ can struggle hard to maintain a sense of safety. Jaguars of all things walk all over you! Even with the sturdy Camaquen, Jaguars should be able to 1 for 1 with these guys with Garland Wars and all that although Aztec’s own Champions should hold out well as well.

UT2: Gourd Telephone – All Units/buildings move, train, research, work and attack 10% faster. Cost: 650s/900g

This is expensive but the history behind it is very real. No seriously, look it up. It was either that or Chimu sculptures depicting men doing… let’s keep it PG. Anyway 900g and 650s are pretty steep. The effects make most of your units pretty scary. But for this tech everyone drools over you are stuck with a mostly Infantry army mixed with Skirmishers and Siege. If it’s too much, I could reduce some values, but when you have ‘telephone’ 900 years before the rest of the world, you kinda deserve to have it!

Strategy: The big play is infantry push, probably with a pivot into Xbows and Bolas Castle Age, and then getting out of that combo for the Imperial Age. Early on, the Chimu can mount a good defensive with 2x HP houses and dropsites, and a repair rate to keep melee units from getting through house walls so effectively it hurts… maybe a bit too much so even. It also works forgoing on the offensive and repairing towers more effectively.

Their Eco is based on the carry capacity but Eagle LoS is also welcome.

As a team bonus, it’s awkward as most of the time, you’ll want a civ with cavalry to provide a sturdy backbone for Knight with Crossbow/Bolas pushes if you’re in say, a 2vs2 Tournament.

The Chimu certainly have an unorthodox early game presence. By Feudal Age, they have the following stand out attributes: +4 carry (+15 for Hunt), 2x House and dropsite HP, faster and cheaper repairs, 40 gold saved on Men At Arms and 75g on supplies if you choose to research them, and Eagles/Sword line with boosted LoS. Put together, this is a nifty combination of bonuses that culminate, hopefully, into a good Feudal civ that can continue to grow into a strong infantry force that saves lots of gold.

Interestingly, I think other Mesos are the best civs to counter the Incas, because they have a strong focus on having anti-infantry units. Plumes have an infantry bonus and just run circles around Camaquens, Slingers destroy Bolasi although this civ’s Skirmishers do just fine at destroying them. The biggest late game counter, IMHO, is the Jaguar Warrior. The Camaquin cannot trade cost effectively against them even without their anti-infantry bonus. If the Chimu go for their great siege, the Aztecs can match them with Siege Onagers of their own. Without Arbalests, they’re forced to even consider for full Xbow in Imperial Age, to kill a niche unit because even with Braided Leather, Jaguars should still win vs Bolas 1v1! I suppose similar issues arise for Teutons with their unmounted juggernaut knights mixed with Hand Cannons, can that civ can keep up with Mesoamerican economies?

That’s what makes this matchup more lopsided than Mayans vs. Goths unless my math is mistaken. The Aztecs can keep up with their powerfully early economy much better than the Goths vs. Mayans situation. Your best hope is going to be using all the saved gold on siege weapons, including, surprisingly, the ever underused Scorpion.

From a technical standpoint, the gold savings means their champions should do well vs other infantry and getting to Halberdier is surprisingly cheap.

But… is it balanced? I don’t know. I’m honestly thinking it’s a bit lacking the later the game goes as its Eagles best benefits kick in before the late Imp Age (no gold for several techs and extra LoS) compared to the Aztecs extra damage and faster training, Mayans extra HP and Incas extra armor. Once that saved gold is gone, or in say a team game, the other Mesos pull ahead.

Best to get your Chimu win early!

4 Likes

This is incredibly busted.

So basically aztecs + berbers bonus combined that judt getd better. This sounds very strong.

Onto your uu. After your unique techs these units moce at 1.03 speed, take zero bonus damage from anything have 18 attack, and 6/7 armor, while also wrecking buildings harder then most units

Im concerned as to what the actual counter to this unit would be for many civs.

2 Likes

I apologize if it’s not balanced? I dont want this civ to not get considered or get my thread locked. That said the repair bonus is now 2x and I could lower it more.

The Carry bonus is held back by lacking Hand Cart. If you have more balanced numbers I’m all ears.

I think the UU seems a bit weak, it doesn’t go toe to toe with any particular unit. It loses to knights, it will lose to Archer micro, and even cost effective vs most infantry. Yes its good vs buildings but it’s not much a main fighter. Also needs a lot of gold for an infantry. That said, if I made you angry I apologize, I only aim to spread ideas so those who have the balance skills can help mee fix them.

If I’m being honest, the thing that annoys me personally the most isn’t anything about the civ design or balance (Which I don’t think @MatCauthon3 is angry about), the thing that annoys me actually is this:

Civ crafting isn’t really a special or unique trait now, and considering most of us don’t even remember you, this thing just seems over the top.

It loses to knights 1v1 but knights have trash unit weakness.
It is actually faster then archers, and keep in mind i wss thinking 3 base armor.

Cost effectively vs infantry?
Maybe but youre forcing them to tech to champion to fo that, and champs can’t force a figgt.

Not angry at all. I actually admire rhe effort.

Champions are quite a bit faster tbh

Tbh the biggest problem balance wise is if a civ with (slightly worse than) Viking tier eco can also have cheaper and full eagle warrior upgrades.

Technically they get 18 extra eagles by the end of the game if you did get the full tech and a few more if you tech halberdier as well. The problem is, late game extra LoS falls off hard! And eventually the Garland Wars El Dorado and Fabric shields will outclass the slighty extra movespeed and attack speed. Remember, Incas were underpowered when Fabric Shield used to be Couriers and increased movespeed instead.

I am pretty sure Incas got a few more buffs than just that, but either way unlike Incas this civ can do a all in eagles comparable if not better than what Aztecs can pull off

I don’t see how. The Aztec Garland Eagles train faster and Garland Wars win 1v1 vs them. Maybe I take away Blast Furnace?

The problem isnt late game, the problem is castle/early imperial age

Either way I dont think it is instantly OP, I just think its very strong

I suppose I went a little over the top, and for that I apologize. But I can put decades on my dedication to civ ideaing. Whether that means anything I don’t know but I’ve been thinking and learning and relearning civ design for a long time. Therefore sorry if I came off too much.

The shield was silver (elite soldier), I understand that the nobility (like the Incas) used gold-plated weapons and armor.

I came up with the following idea based on this Chimú element:


(Gold and silver bowl, representing duality)

The Chimús are projected as a naval and defensive civilization, as a defensive civilization their main objective would be to develop quickly until the imperial age and attack with some kind of advantage, so the Chimú UU could be a Maceman that at the time of creation would have statistics regular and wearing silver armor, but after 5 minutes of creating the unit the Maceman would noticeably improve his stats (hp, damage, armor, etc.) and would now wear golden armor.

Nit after the second ut.

That unit is really broken to be honest. Decent HP at any level, great anti building damage, good armor, average speed, and decent attack. The thing that makes is so broken though is the rate of fire. 1.5 is one of the fastest in the game, and with that damage, it will shred everything, especially buildings. The RoF needs to be at least 1.9 or 2 for a standard unit to be balanced.

Champions are still slightly faster tbh

1.03 vs .99.

How are champs faster?

Oh nvm, he tweaked the numbers again

The concept of a unit that gets stronger after 5 minutes is noob trap as it wants you to NOT use and keep idle a unit you just threw money at.

Hehe, you’re right; the unit is very broken.

Is it better if the stats of the militia-line are used as a base?

I agree to some extent, however, I took the idea to be a “defensive civilization”, the only existing defensive civilization in AoE 2 (official) is the Byzantines, which is a versatile civilization that stands out in the imperial age when it is able to train cataphract with logistics (which is a very strong investment so it has a discount bonus on trash units to compensate).

I also imagined the psychological effect that a rival player would have against the Chimú: you have to defeat him before your rival reaches the imperial age and manages to create entire legions of golden Maceman. This would force the opponent to take the offensive. (also historically consistent with Chimú military tactics of considering quality over quantity and wars of attrition).

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As an additional idea, the Chimú maceman would have a bar (just like the Coustillier) that would serve to know the time needed to transform silver into gold (the bar would fill slowly as in the case of monks).

As I said, these are my personal ideas. I accept all kinds of constructive criticism :smile:

Thing is, Maceman is a very underwhelming name. The Camaquin is more based on Chimu religion namewise hence why the gods let them ignore bonus damage and they still use a mace to smack bricks with.

The idea of a ‘defensive’ civ isn’t turtle up, technically my version is defensive too with 2x HP house walling and better repairs, but with 5 infantry units, I can’t NOT call it an infantry civ.

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