Viper's new UU tierlist

These ranking videos basically always end up jumbling the metric being ranked. Like the majority are ranked by unconditional probability of use. But some like the mameluke, cataphract, imp skirm were ranked with pretty strong conditions in mind. Others like the houfnice and missionary are ranked solely because of its performance relative to others in its class. Its not like the houfnice is nearly as generally useful as the other S tier units e.g.

So at the end its hard to know what the ranking means. The discussion is always worth way more than the final rank.

I think it would be better to stick with what he said in the beginning and realize there is no good way to project/map all the dimensions UUs have down to 1 dimension. Instead, choose a subset + map that makes sense.

  • Unconditional stuff:
    • unconditional probability of use (estimate for how frequently the unit will be unlocked+used under normal decision making)
    • unconditional expected RoI (again subject to normal decision making)
  • Conditional stuff:
    • conditional on wanting to use a class of unit (cav/archers/etc) how often will the unit be used? Estimates marginal impact of access to the unit to the civ.
    • conditional on the enemy using the class which is intended to be weak to the UU, what is the expected RoI? (Estimates meeting design goals)
    • conditional on the enemy using the class which is expected to be strong vs the UU, what is the expected RoI? (Estimates overbuffing/versatility).
    • conditional on being forced to tech into the unit, whats the expected game outcome (Estimates flexibility of UU + civ)
  • Causality stuff:
    • Given the unit was changed in some way (e.g. small buff) how much of an impact would it have on the civ in terms of balance?
    • Given the unit is not changed, how much wiggle room is there for balancing the civ? I.e. how civ-defining is the UU.

Hopefully the idea is clear.


Camel Rider tier A, it is much worse than Mangudai in every situation except countering cavalry archer.
Chakram and Shrivamsha tier A, they are actually counter units, not that good compare with other all around units, and they are not hard to deal with.
War wagon tier A with camel riders, it is a slower version of cavalry archer, good vs archer but bad vs anything else.
Coustillier Tier B, it is a counter unit too, counter archer and siege, bad vs anything else. Burgundian got early cavalry so Coustillier isn’t a better option. Not a civ good unit like Chakram and Shrivamsha.

Boyar tier A, it is better than paladin overall. It is not weaker than paladin when fighting against pike and camel, but it can completely stop most of the infantry and melee cavalry
Condottiero tier A, it is a faster version of champion and it is not countered by hand cannoneer
War Elephant should be in situational instead of tier C. It is very hard to counter on TG closed maps


I agree with the most, but here what I don’t agree with:

-IMO Janissary, Organ guns & Cho Ko Nu are S tier and maybe also Ghulam.

-He put Mameluke S tier which is far from that even with the last buff, Mameluke are C tier or could say B at max.

-Gbeto should be B at least if not A actually.

-Samurai is more like a situational unit, or could be C tier.
-Karambit is C IMO.

Janissary is worse than Conquistador so 1 tier lower

Karambit is not too bad, good harass unit , hard to deal with

No, in most situations Janissary is actually much better. The 8 range with the 18 attack is so problematic and deadly to anything especially in the castle age. Once you get the death ball of the Janissary at any map and Vs any civ it is so hard to stop and you will get the upper hand always. Janissary indeed should not be less than S tier.

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In castle age, Conquistador can hit wherever they want. They can beat knight and camels. Only archer can defend them but can’t catch them.

What Janissary can do in castle age? literally nothing. They can’t run from knight and can’t outrun archers.

Many units are powerful in deathball other than Janissary. Look at the other S tier units, Janissary can only fight Plume Archer and Mameluke ( I don’t think Chakram belong to S tier), but Plume Archer and Mameluke are good at anything else.

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What? Did you really ever try this unit or what? Can’t run? Why do I even need to run, when you have the Janissaries the one who will be running is your enemy. No archer unit can beat the Janissaries in castle age especially with the deadly 8 range and 18 attack. Few Janissaries can one shot anything. Knights? Can do nothing with a good micro for Janissaries. 10 Janissaries or even less can kill FU knight in castle age. I am so confused about what you know about Janissaries!

No, Mameluke IMO is C tier if not even D tier if there was D tier. The unit is garbage. So high cost, 0/0 armour, 85g/55f cost, low range that barely do the trick. As Saracens you have much better options, going for the normal camels is much better. Heavy camel have 170hp and cost much less and no need castle. You have FU CA, FU Arbs, this unit is mostly useless in most cases and not worthy to train at all. For Plumes I see them A tier at best not S.


Yeah definitely. There will never be an absolute list. It will always vary depending on the criteria, and maps have such a massive impact.

But it gives a rough idea.

For example karambits are only viable on some maps, nevermind good.

There’s probably not enough tiers and wouldn’t be viable to have that level of granularity. In many cases Camel archers are better than mangudai in castle age. The cost, TT, raw stats, reduced dmg from skirms.

The only one I really disagree with here is the serjeant. Should be lower. I didn’t see his opinion on it, but can only assume he is conflating the UT and UU.

Berserks can counter cav, they even do very well vs paladin which easily beat champion. Also if you play berserk vs champ or basically any other infantry unit berserk win with very few exceptions.

Depends on if you can use mobility. Conqs are so popular on something like nomad because they can run around and snipe vils or units. However gunpowder UU are pretty common on closed maps and jannis are way better here. In fact they are easily the best castle age unit here. There simply is no counter to janni mangonel in castle age on a map like arena maybe except for briton xbows or shrivamshas.

Classic case for hard to get to but increadibly strong if you can get there. If your civ doesn’t have arbalest it’s almost impossible to counter a large mass of mamelukes.


Exactly this. Mamelukes are expensive but insanely strong once going.

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I feel like in every single tier list which Incas are part of, they end up being in B tier.

In a game where you really really want to end up in A tier or above no less. :sob:

I’d at least place Kamayuk to A tier, so together with Slingers in C combine into a B tier, not B-

(No, you will not convince me in a tier list of S-A-B-C, B stands for ‘good’ like with grading. It’s underwhelming/below average in this context!!)

agree on most. fun to see most infantry UU ranked B or lower. some of them needs buffs as it was discussed several times on several threads

I don’t think you’ve ever played this unit. A mass of these will take on anything. They can even take power units and buildings down. They will eat TCs like they are nothing. You just need some meat shield in front, against heavy cavalry.

Are you assuming that you have a castle right behind you on arena ?
You are outnumbered, Archers got 7 range, You can only shoot once till archer can reach you. Janissaries is known weak against archers that’s why the devs buffed hussar.

What about British archer ?

Oh knight got no micro and stupid run directly toward you ? Janissaries can’t do better than archers in this case, How can you hit knight without ballistic

Have you ever played the game ? Do you know anything about accuracy ? Yes 10 Janissaries can one shot knight in melee range, but knight can choose when to fight, you can’t

Respect Viper, his rank is not based on unit price, otherwise cataphract can’t be in S rank either.
Mameluke is a good all around unit, hard to counter, Skirms can’t catch them and they can kite small group of pikes. They can kill elephants too
BTW, heavy camel of most of the civs got 0/0 too , only 10 extra HP but can’t do anything better than Mameluke.

Berserker might be in tier A for it’s castle age power, 12+2+5 attack vs knight is very OP, but it is absolutely not the reason of fighting against cav and champions in late game.
Berserk does not counter cav by itself, It is the Viking UT counter cav. In this case ,Viking champion trade well against paladin too. I would also put Condottiero in A tier due to the timing advantage in early imp .

A mass of many other units can take on anything as well. Look at the rest of tier S units, which is not powerful in mass ? But most of other units can fight in small groups too or rule a certain timing.

Mameluke is not good at all. Saracens Heavy camel only 10 extra HP than Mameluke? It is +40 HP than Mameluke not +10! Elite Mameluke have 130hp, Saracens Heavy camel have 170 HP. You can even go by a golden army with Arbs+heavy camel combo and still better than Mameluke. As Saracens it is just a noob choice to go Mameluke instead of their FU great units. FU CA, FU Arbs and heavy camel with 170hp all these are much better.

This unit to be practical it needs to cost like 60g or even 50g instead of 85g! As Saracens you will always have better options. It is just a very bad and wrong design for a civ that doesn’t need it since more than 20 years ago. It is a total failure from the old devs.

Who told you that? Janissaries shred archers and anything else, only Britons make a problem vs Janissaries. As long as you have the Janissaries in the field especially in the castle age and with good numbers it is just a matter of time until your enemy resign, it is over. The 8 range is what make them so powerful more than anything else, this is regardless their hight attack.

What is your problem? I said heavy camel of most of the civs. Is Saracen most of the civs ?
It is okay if you don’t like the unit, but the price is not something I want totalk about, it has been nerfed already.

Then you tell me why Turk Hussar got extra pierce armor ?
Why Turk does not have 100% win rate against archer civ if Janissaries is as powerful as you said ?
What other S tier unit is not strong with good numbers ? They can fight in small numbers too, Janissaries definitely can’t do it, you are in trouble if you cant 1 shot knight in melee. The 8 range is actually nothing against anything can move due to the poor accuracy

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