Viper's new UU tierlist

Yeah you could say that if you want to ignore the price, but the fact is, you can’t ignore it. This unit will never be good as long as you have better generic options and as long as they cost that much, whatever it can do. The unit still needs more buffs especially in the cost perspective.

Because people were crying (and still crying) about Turks trash units.

Because it is clear that not all the time you can get the best conditions to get a castle and afford Janissaries. I am talking about what this unit can do if you got them, it is just insane powerful unit and not less than S tier at all whatever anyone else say.

Not like Janissaries at all, Janissaries will remain one of the best UUs in the game especially with small numbers.

It is actually more than enough, everything and everyone will run away from 8 range powerful guns.

I am actually surprised you still arguing about Janissaries not being that much good and about Mamelukes by saying they are good!

For me I will never use Mamelukes as Saracens at all, I will always go with the generic options because they are cheaper and much better, Mameluke is a clown unit.

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What about Bohemians HC then. Janissary’s advantage is +1 range and 0 frame delay and +4 hp, on the other hand, Bohemians HC is far more accurate (75% vs 50%), it is significantly cheaper (95 resources vs 115 resources), and need no Castle, only need #### 200g Chemistry and Bohemians has stronger eco than Turks.

In my opinion, Janissary is strong but it isn’t S tier, it hasn’t mobility, 0 PA which means it is fragile to towers and TCs like all other foot archer units, Conquistador for example, can run to villagers in the other side of the TC, by runing under the TC. TCs are insurmountable obstacle to Janissarries like other archer units. Lacking mobility hurts immensely, oponent can carry villagers and ecos to other places from Janissary+Mangonel agression which opponent can’t do to Conquistador thanks to Conquistador’s ability to kill escaping villager thanks to speed. Janissary can dislodge opponent but can’t finish like Conquistador. Janissary is A tier.

Huskarl can’t be A tier btw. Even nerfed Ghulam is better and successful design of Huskarl as well as Goth is C tier (maybe D) civilization, so Huskarl is B tier. C tier civ can’t have A tier UU in my opinion. Simple logic, if this UU is so strong, why not it can carry C tier civ to above. Huskarl doesn’t turn tie after it is started to be created, Goths late Castle Age and Imperial isn’t very strong, it is like B and it is B tier thanks to mostly 30% cheaper Halberdier not thanks to Huskarl. If Goths had generic Hussar, we would see generic Hussar for raid instead of Huskarl.

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Then you should ask Viper why he put Cataphract in tier S too. I don’t know his opinion that’s why I don’t want to talk about the price. If he ignored the price then Mameluke is actually very strong.

So why pierce armor instead of attack or melee armor ?

Your opponent is much better than you if you can’t even build a castle in the game. This is not a legit example.
Since we are comparing Janissaries and Conquistador. 3 Conquistador can already mess around but what can you do with 3 Janissaries ?
Look, Longbowman and Organ Gun are in tier A too, what can Janissaries do but they can’t ?

50% accuracy is more than enough so 2 Janissaries deals 17 damage sounds good, right ? it takes 5 Janissaries to kill 1 archer and you said they can beat archers, not to mention they can’t hit anything on the move.

I stopped talking about Mamelukes already. I can’t teach you if you don’t like it and don’t know how to use it. Yeah they are not good in 1V1 due to the price. Obviously this rank is not based on the price.
Janissaries can’t rule a certain timing ALONE, almost every cavalry and archer can trade well against Janissaries, Janissaries can’t even always beat huskar.

All of your points depend on from when you’re making the comparison - is it getting to a point where those armies are massed and can be used, importance of that unit for that civ, or just about how you can use them once massed by taking heads-on fights and respawning as @Dagorad62 has explained.

“Mameluke is hard to counter” is the biggest joke I have ever seen this year. actually mameluke is countered by Arbalesters,camels , seige onagers, scorptions and almost all the ultimate units except cav units. Unfortunately, these units are always cheaper than mameluke at the same time point.

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At the very beginning, I told SmileyDragon12 Janissaries can’t be in S tier because it is worse than Conquistador.

We all know that Conquistador can be in S tier for it’s castle age power. A few Conquistadors can beat knight and avoid any fight they can’t win. Around this timing, Conquistador are very hard to deal with.

Can Janissaries show off at a certain timing ? I don’t think so. Knight line can always pick a fight first. Archers can always trade well against them. They are literally archers with higher attack but without ballistics.

IMO, Conquistador is the MVP of Spanish. Turks unique should be BBC.

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Do you know what does counter mean ? It is not hard counter if you can’t catch me. Otherwise War Elephant counters everything.
On castle age, Mameluke kill crossbow with 5 hit, crossbow kill Mameluke with 19 hits. 1 Mameluke(85g) can kill 2 crossbow(90g)
On Imperial age, Elite Mame kill Arb with 4 hit, Arb kill Mameluke with 22 hits. 3 Arb can barely kill 1 Mame. You should wake up and actually play the game.

Yup, camels can counter Mameluke. Mameluke can’t beat camels with the same gold cost.

Siege onager counter Mameluke ? You must be kidding. With the same gold cost, 2 Siege Onager need to fight 3 Elite Mameluke, what if Mameluke run into your minimum range ?

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Infantry UU’s are finally getting some recognition though from professional players, after that one Infantry Patch, people still didn’t really use them much in tournaments, the most you saw was still eagles and well that’s basically it.
But now the recent tournament had Samurai being the talking point of winning it all pretty much(completely not biased and not happy about this in the slightest).
I remember the Game I think it was Jordan vs Dragonstar, Jordan taking down castle after castle with his Woad Raiders and Dragonstar teching in to very late Paladins but then also destroying castles.

We saw lots of Samurai action as well, and the latest OP infantry unit in the Ghulam who many pro players would like to see a removal of the bonus vs eagles as that MU’s pretty oppressive.

Kamayuk if Incas are played is always a talking point with the casters, and Berserks, maybe not Teutonik Knights, but Huskarls are still super powerful.

But some units are easier to get to than others, just objectively taking units into account is one thing, but there’s always a ton of “it depends” in age of empires, which we have to keep in mind when thinking of when a unit is viable to make.

But I’m happy to see Infantry units getting at least some Bs and above and that’s all that matters to me.

Thank you for this thoughtful comment! It might not be worth it as you can’t seem to read properly but let ne explain why maneluke is a strong unit if you can get there.

Is it expensive? Hell yeah. But what can you do vs mass mamelukes? Arbs work pretty well but at the same they can also lose because of less mobility. Still the best for a lot of civs.

Camels are indeed a great counter but most civs don’t have camels and even if you do chances are saracens have better camels. You have all the upgrades for camels anyways when playing mamelukes so the tech switch doesn’t take much time. If you can surprise the saracens player though camels are a great respoonse.

SO? Firstly the unit only works on certain maps so that’s not good as a general suggestion. Secondly saracens is one of the best civs to counter SO as they have FU monks and bbc so no you probably don’t wanna play SO vs saracens even if the circumstance allows for it.


cataphrat is also incredibly expensive yet everyone KNOWS about them being strong and powerful, the Mameluke hasn’t had the same history about it only recently receiving some buffs to IIRC armor class or something of that line.
A shame really, a lot of units could see a lot more use if those negative stigmata would not surround them from years past, lots of people didn’t even know there was an Infantry patch.

They were indeed bufffed recently as to not receive bonus dmg from skirms anymore. This basically means there is no trash counter to mamelukes. That’s why the unit is actually playable contrary to pre patch.

Also catas and mamelukes are somewhat different imo. Cataphract are really only powerful vs infantry while mameluke is more of an allrounder unit although it has its strenghts (cav) and weaknesses (archers).

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pikes are trash still and would counter them as they do with all ranged cav units.
Mamelukes are pretty much a mounted axe thrower in my eyes at least.

Probably the best composition vs mamelukes, Archers and Pikes.

If you have a good mass of mamelukes it is like playing cav archer. So a lot of pikes will die before approaching the unit. Mamelukes don’t have the greatest range but they have good atk and also they get reduced bonus dmg (from pikes it is actually cut in half).

Kite the pikes and watch them be useless. Furthermore…

If my opponent is going archer + pike, why was i going mamelukes in the first place? And if i forced them to shift into it, i was doing so well i forced them off their prefered composition

Tbf what civ is this? Are you creating the perfect scenario for Mamelukes to be countered? Or are you considering real world games

Take Tatars for example? Or franks? Or Huns? Or another cavalry civ. The ones you’ll actually use memelukes against?

Or do we make comparisons of using huskarls against jaguars to show how huskarls are countered?

You clearly do not understand what lower frame delay and +1 range does in a fight. You brush over this like it means nothing. But those two specifically together make a big difference, especially Vs mangonels for example.

And to muddy the water even more, Bohemian chem + uni +
2 ranges(due to Train time) is significantly more expensive than a Turk castle.

There probably isn’t a civ in the game that wouldn’t want jans

And you made a terrible comparison

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Firstly, you need to compare them to archers, because those are the closest in castle age. When you do that, you will realize why they are so special. They are similar to archers in that a few of them don’t work that great. This is also true for other S-tier units, like the ballista elephant and urumis. A few ballista elephants will get shredded by halbs, heavy cavlary and siege. But get a mass of 20-30, and you have a death ball, which can only be stopped by siege onagers or certain UUs. Urumis will get destroyed by pretty much anything in small numbers. But get a mass of them, or combine them with other infantry, and you have a very strong army. So we’ve established that this “work in small groups” is not a criterion for getting S tier.

This is another statement you’ve made, and this is precisely where janissaries are exceptional. If you have 10 archers, you have a force which can take villagers down from a range, but will die to cav and can’t really take down buildings/cross walls. However, it is trivial for a force of janissaries to destroy walls and take down buildings. They are obsidian arrow archers on ######### If given time, they will destroy a tc without losing a single HP. They can deal with cav unless they get run over, but turks have light cavs to act as meat shields. This means the knights can’t not take the fight, when you are in the eco and destroying tcs.

You forgot that their damage is 22 in the elite version. I agree with you that Bohemian hand cannons are great in castle age. But, Battle Elephants or cav archers would be OP in feudal age. They get the same unit an age prior, and that unit is extremely powerful in the prior age doesn’t necessarily mean that the unit itself is S-tier. To take an extreme example to make my point clear, take any of the C-tier UUs and place them in dark age. They would be oppressively strong. Does that make them S-tier?
Also, while you don’t need a castle, you do need to build a university and buy chemistry, which is 100 wood for uni, 300 food and 200 gold is which is almost the same as the cost of a castle, especially considering how tight food is in the early castle age. HCs don’t outrange a TC either, which is a huge downside for them. You need something else to deal with TCs.

You don’t need mangonels with Janissaries, get light cav instead. Janissaries can take down a TC by themselves. Light cav will take care of all those running vils. Now, that all being said, placing them in A tier is fine. I consider them somewhere between A and S.

I disagree completely. Your logic doesn’t work because civs don’t work that way. Let me illustrate with an extreme example. I’ll make a new civ, with burmese as the basis. I’ll make a new UU, and let’s say it has 500 HP, 45 melee attack, 0.9 movement speed and 15/-2 armour, costing 100 food and 80 gold. Now, I’ll add a “bonus” to the civ as follows: “villagers move 15% faster, but take +100% time to create”. Is this new UU S tier? In the hands of a civ like britons, absolutely. But in the hands of the new civ, it’s nearly useless. This new civ will be bottom tier in all 1v1 arabia games, because your civ will never get to mass these.

This is an extreme example, but an in-game example is Dravidians. Urumis are an exceptionally strong unit. It is the most cost-effective melee unit in the game (except maybe vs Persian elephants). But Dravidians are a bottom tier civ. A UU does not make a civ S tier, although it can certainly help.

Mamelukes own siege weaponry hard, since you can just snipe them with a few and you have no minimum range. :woozy_face:

I would put Camel scouts, Flemish Militia, the Missionary, the Genitour, the Condottiero and the Slinger in the situational slot as they are support units which do their designed purpose quite well in my humble opinion. Otherwise, I would not change much besides the Teuton Knight to A tier.

The remaining UU in tier B and C could use some buffs.

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exactly, so he’s telling us britons, ethiopians, etc can counter mamelukes. why would i make mamelukes against those civs anyway?

Halberdier counter Mameluke before and now. It has huge +37 (+26 from Camel armor class and +11 from Mameluke armor class) bonus against Mamemlukes and Mamelukes have neither range (only 3 range) nor +6 bonus (+2 base, +4 from Parthians tactics) attack vs Spear-line.

Mamelukes is strong unit and it pays off its high 85 gold cost. 85 gold cost isn’t problem, Boyar cost 80g and Paladin cost 75 gold and both provides effectiveness in proportion to their gold cost. Problem is weakness against Halberdier. Mamelukes would be S tier unit if it didn’t take huge +37 bonus attack from Halberdier and +29 from Pikeman. Therefore Mameluke is A- tier in my opinion.

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