Viper's new UU tierlist

[Darkillermon]

@AbledManatee867

Halberdier counter Mameluke before and now.

Only if you are not paying attention or by some ultimate reason you must pick the fight and have just a few mamelukes

[MatCauthon3]

@AbledManatee867

Halberdier counter Mameluke before and now

Micro against them. This has been proven to work. Literally last year @WoeIsToWho proved that they can kite infantry with ease.

[AbledManatee867]

@Darkillermon

Only if you are not paying attention or by some ultimate reason you must pick the fight and have just a few mamelukes

@MatCauthon3

Micro against them. This has been proven to work. Literally last year @WoeIsToWho proved that they can kite infantry with ease.

the opposite has been confirmed since Age of Empires II: Definitive Edition in 2019. Watch this match or hundreds of another match in which Halberdier vs Mameluke happened. I really can’t believe I had to discuss such an obviously proven subject.

Saracens Mamelukes are legit!

It is Lithuanians Halberdier which have 10% speed but in return -1 MA which is trade off and Halberdier fought off pretty well against Mamelukes though Viper won the match at the end.

Stronger option FU Heavy Cavalry doesn’t counter FU Halberdier, too. It is like 50%/50% win chance for both sides.

[MatCauthon3]

@AbledManatee867

It is Lithuanians Halberdier which have 10% speed

Show us it happening without lithuanian halbs. 10% speed helps quite a bit more then 1 armor

[Darkillermon]

Even with faster halbs the mamelukes only really died when he decided to dive and kill all the BBC. After that Viper not only got his numbers back, but also more mames than he had before. This video doesnt prove your point at all.

[WoeIsToWho]

Halbs don’t kill mameluke. Halbs can be effective in a pushing composition against Mameluke armies in defense of ranged and/or siege complements, but Halbs have absolutely no way to force Mamelukes to engage, and halbs are not effective in raids unlike mamelukes, which can be deadly in very small numbers in trade, woodlines, etc. Unless you are applying pressure in a way that really does force the mameluke to engage, Halbs don’t kill Mameluke.

Camels are generally considered to be the proper counter against Mamelukes for good reason, and if you aren’t in a position to force the mamelukes to engage, Camels can handle raids, outmaneuver the Mameluke, and win fights cost-effectively. Halb can not. At best, they are a soft counter, because it’s very clear the situations where it’ll be effective as one.

I will grant that I think the Lithuanian errored in defending the Mameluke, in your example game. Skirms were a poor continual investment of resources at the midpoint, and should have opted for Hussar to raid instead. It wouldn’t have done much against the actual push with the Mameluke, but killing the economy is how you kill a unit that costs that many resources. Skirms were doing him no favors at that juncture while thinning his frontline, which should have been able to defend a few siege units here and there. It’s also not impossible that the Hussars could pick off a bombard cannon here and there if absolutely necessary (or badly positioned) but I wouldn’t want to rely on it.

Even bleeding off five or ten mameluke from the Saracens and killing a few villagers in making them address raids is a far more useful investment of ~25 population than the Skirms were during that push.

[AbledManatee867]

@MatCauthon3

Show us it happening without lithuanian halbs. 10% speed helps quite a bit more then 1 armor

@WoeIsToWho

Halb can not. At best, they are a soft counter, because it’s very clear the situations where it’ll be effective as one.

No, it isn’t. “FU Halberdier counter Mameluke” is known fact. You should follow pro games, or play more games with Mamelukes or against Mamelukes. Halberdier+Arbalest is better than solely Halberdier for sure. Another example of this with Spanishes generic Halberdier:

When Mamelukes Work, They're Beautiful!

[FreeWinPlz1739]

@filtercoffee488

Firstly, you need to compare them to archers, because those are the closest in castle age. When you do that, you will realize why they are so special. They are similar to archers in that a few of them don’t work that great. This is also true for other S-tier units, like the ballista elephant and urumis. A few ballista elephants will get shredded by halbs, heavy cavlary and siege. But get a mass of 20-30, and you have a death ball, which can only be stopped by siege onagers or certain UUs. Urumis will get destroyed by pretty much anything in small numbers. But get a mass of them, or combine them with other infantry, and you have a very strong army. So we’ve established that this “work in small groups” is not a criterion for getting S tier.

BTW Ballista elephants is the only unit that can cut tree on castle age so a few of them can be useful on castle age as well. It can do something unique in small numbers at least

The advantage of archer is the feudal age power and the deathball on early castle age before opponents can mass knight. Janissaries don’t have such advantage as normal archers. You should have noticed that most of the foot archers are in Tier A, except Plume Archer can be used as cavalry archer. Janissaries can’t do anything critical that others can’t do. This is why Janissaries should remain in Tier A.

@filtercoffee488

This is another statement you’ve made, and this is precisely where janissaries are exceptional. If you have 10 archers, you have a force which can take villagers down from a range, but will die to cav and can’t really take down buildings/cross walls. However, it is trivial for a force of janissaries to destroy walls and take down buildings. They are obsidian arrow archers on ######### If given time, they will destroy a tc without losing a single HP. They can deal with cav unless they get run over, but turks have light cavs to act as meat shields. This means the knights can’t not take the fight, when you are in the eco and destroying tcs.

You compare late castle age unit Janissaries with Feudal age/early castle age unit foot archer is already unfair, but we can still do it.
I don’t need 10 archers if my target is villager. how about 8 archers( 85% accuracy) that can 1 shot villagers? 8 Janissaries will die to knight too like any other archer. They can trade with knight but they are not hard to deal with.
Be able to take down building is a bonus, but they can’t use ballistics. I don’t want say which is better. They just have their own advantage and disadvantage compare with normal foot archer which isn’t enough to be in tier S.

@filtercoffee488

Also, while you don’t need a castle, you do need to build a university and buy chemistry, which is 100 wood for uni, 300 food and 200 gold is which is almost the same as the cost of a castle, especially considering how tight food is in the early castle age. HCs don’t outrange a TC either, which is a huge downside for them. You need something else to deal with TCs.

Tell me TC’s attack range.
Tell me HC’s attack range.

@filtercoffee488

You don’t need mangonels with Janissaries, get light cav instead. Janissaries can take down a TC by themselves. Light cav will take care of all those running vils. Now, that all being said, placing them in A tier is fine. I consider them somewhere between A and S.

No we don’t talk about other units, we only talk about the units on the list.

[FreeWinPlz1739]

@AbledManatee867

No, it isn’t. “FU Halberdier counter Mameluke” is known fact. You should follow pro games, or play more games with Mamelukes or against Mamelukes. Halberdier+Arbalest is better than solely Halberdier for sure. Another example of this with Spanishes generic Halberdier:

Halb vs Mameluke is not legit, one is trash unit and the other is a gold unit, We can’t equalize their price and pull out a certain number to fight each other.

Maybe we can use market price.

Assuming market price is 14 in late game.
Harb cost 60 F+W, 10 harbs cost 84 gold
Mameluke 55F + 85G, 11 Halbs vs 1 Mameluke.
11 Halbs can beat 1 Mameluke in most of the situations. Mameluke need 132 second to clear all 11 halbs with hit and run. Halbs can’t catch Mameluke but they can do something else instead, 132 sec is quite long and a lot of damage can be done with 11 halbs.

In early game, Mameluke vs pike when market price is 70
1 Mameluke vs 3 pike
Mameluke need 42 sec to kill 3 pikes with hit and run. I would say 3 pikes can’t do much during 42 sec and they can’t do anything to Mameluke either, so pike does not counter Mameluke in castle age.

[SmileyDragon12]

Correct and so true that halbs and pikes not only good counters Vs Mameluke, they are actually a broken counters. A unit that do 37 damage by a single hit to other unit is not a balanced thing at all and the 3 range is not an argument at all since it is so hard to micro with this useless range. Mameluke struggle so much against halbs and pikes. As you mentioned before, it is the dumb design that make Mamelukes have many classes and make halbs and pikes do like double damage to them. It is so legit to suggest reducing the bonus damage from pikes and halbs against the Mameluke.

[FurtherLime7936]

@SmileyDragon12 ah yes, getting pissed off when someone say something about Mamelukes, then writes a treaty how the unit sucks and how it needs a cheaper gold cost, sounds too Equalizer, isn’t it?

[NoraLoralei]

I don’t know what you don’t understand when someone says: “The best composition versus mamelukes would be archers and pikes”

Like instead of the no longer working Skirmishers, which don’t deal bonus damage no longer, or something.

Also Jaguars are made by one civ, but all civs can make pikes and archers.

I was just throwing in some random example of what mamelukes could be weak against.

No need to try and read anything between the lines or too deep into it when there’s nothing hidden behind the plain text.

[filtercoffee488]

@FreeWinPlz1739

BTW Ballista elephants is the only unit that can cut tree on castle age so a few of them can be useful on castle age as well. It can do something unique in small numbers at least

1. Cutting trees is circumstantial. 2. urumis as an example still stands.

@FreeWinPlz1739

Janissaries can’t do anything critical that others can’t do

Except take down buildings as a ranged, archer-like unit. Oh, and destroy all trash units, including their direct counters, skirmishers and condottieros.

@FreeWinPlz1739

You compare late castle age unit Janissaries with Feudal age/early castle age unit foot archer is already unfair, but we can still do it.

Upgrade it to FU crossbows. The point still stands.

@FreeWinPlz1739

Tell me TC’s attack range.
Tell me HC’s attack range.

My bad, TCs don’t outrange HCs. But, I like how you nitpicked one inaccuracy while fully ignoring the crux of the argument. Why don’t you actually address the argument? It works even when you ignore that one part.

@FreeWinPlz1739

8 Janissaries will die to knight too like any other archer. They can trade with knight but they are not hard to deal with.

You are going back to argument I already addressed. You need a mass. Get 20 Janissaries, and see what knights can do.
Yes, this is only possible either in a 1 tc push, or late castle age. But others don’t get HCs till mid-imperial.

@FreeWinPlz1739

No we don’t talk about other units, we only talk about the units on the list.

So according to you, you don’t place a unique unit in the context of a civ. They must be able to do everything by themselves without any support. Alright then. I guess pretty much nothing is S-tier.

Houfnice is worthless by this standard. Anything can kill them if they get close enough. A single vil can kill a houfnice.

Read the rest of that comment to see why you need to place a UU in the context of a civ, or it’s a worthless analysis.

[Pulikesi25]

All of that is true for open and probably hybrid maps as well. I think closed map players would value janissaries more because its not common to invest into a lot of knights and crossbows usually.

@FreeWinPlz1739

It is not hard counter if you can’t catch me.

That’s true for units with good raiding potential - Conqs, Coustillier, Leitis, Wagons, Ghilman. Mamelukes are too expensive and low ranged to be useful as a raiding unit. You’re mostly going to get some numbers, all upgrades and push with them. When you push you’re forced to take a fight or else you lose the siege and your push gets delayed. You can’t keep losing numbers because they cost 85 gold and you’ll soon run out of gold.

@FreeWinPlz1739

On castle age, Mameluke kill crossbow with 5 hit, crossbow kill Mameluke with 19 hits. 1 Mameluke（85g) can kill 2 crossbow(90g)
On Imperial age, Elite Mame kill Arb with 4 hit, Arb kill Mameluke with 22 hits. 3 Arb can barely kill 1 Mame. You should wake up and actually play the game

Some great and yet pointless math. Crossbows will be in huge numbers before the first mameluke comes out. Crossbows also outrange mamelukes. So even when you have a sizeable number of mamelukes, crossbows can hit and run and get a lot of value. Most of the times by the time you have 2 castles and mass a decent amount of mamelukes, crossbow player will hit imp and get +3, chemistry/arbalest etc.

@FreeWinPlz1739

Yup, camels can counter Mameluke. Mameluke can’t beat camels with the same gold cost.

4 castles, lot of time needed to construct those castles and mass them vs 10+ stables, 1 castle for conscription or maybe two, dirt cheap imp upgrade.

@FreeWinPlz1739

Siege onager counter Mameluke ? You must be kidding. With the same gold cost, 2 Siege Onager need to fight 3 Elite Mameluke, what if Mameluke run into your minimum range ?

This is more of a closed map and TG scenario but really don’t know what to say to this logic. By this logic siege onagers can’t kill any units. Haven’t you ever seen target fires, 10-15 siege onagers being used? Unless you have amazing split micro, you can never fight a good number of siege onagers with only mamelukes. You can make an argument about saracen player using their bombard canons or redemption monks or their own SO to fight opponent SO.

@NoraLoralei

Infantry UU’s are finally getting some recognition though from professional players, after that one Infantry Patch, people still didn’t really use them much in tournaments, the most you saw was still eagles and well that’s basically it.

what? where? most infantry uu are still terribly weak and unusable.

@NoraLoralei

But now the recent tournament had Samurai being the talking point of winning it all pretty much(completely not biased and not happy about this in the slightest)

I don’t understand why people do this. They don’t see that it was Japanese with 13 fishing ships on a Hybrid map where the Japanese player also had a 20+ vill lead for more than 10 mins. Its not Arabia or any regular open land map where the Japanese player went all-in Samurai and won.

@NoraLoralei

We saw lots of Samurai action as well, and the latest OP infantry unit in the Ghulam who many pro players would like to see a removal of the bonus vs eagles as that MU’s pretty oppressive.

Kamayuk if Incas are played is always a talking point with the casters, and Berserks, maybe not Teutonik Knights, but Huskarls are still super powerful.

Samurai only on fishing maps. Kamayuks, Huskarls are not going to be a part of most tournaments because those civs are weak on most settings. On land maps its mostly just Ghilman, Chakrams, Obuchs against camel civs and before the Sicilian nerf, First crusade serjeants.

@NoraLoralei

I remember the Game I think it was Jordan vs Dragonstar, Jordan taking down castle after castle with his Woad Raiders and Dragonstar teching in to very late Paladins but then also destroying castles.

A great example of the problem with playing infantry unique unit and how it can swing the game and cause an upset.

@NoraLoralei

cataphrat is also incredibly expensive yet everyone KNOWS about them being strong and powerful, the Mameluke hasn’t had the same history about it only recently receiving some buffs to IIRC armor class or something of that line.
A shame really, a lot of units could see a lot more use if those negative stigmata would not surround them from years past, lots of people didn’t even know there was an Infantry patch.

Not the stigma. Cataphract fits well into Byzantine’s military transition. You play your cheap Camels-skirms, opponent tries to counter it with champs, eagles or some infantry unique unit and Cataphracts counter that.
Whereas for Saracens, they have 170 hp camels and its 150 hp even without having a single castle. Given how Saracens don’t have any eco bonus past the mid-game nor army discounts, its not meaningful to try and go for Mamelukes in most situations.

@AbledManatee867

Mamelukes is strong unit and it pays off its high 85 gold cost. 85 gold cost isn’t problem, Boyar cost 80g and Paladin cost 75 gold and both provides effectiveness in proportion to their gold cost. Problem is weakness against Halberdier

Paladin are made from stables and yet feasible in 1v1 only with strong eco civs like Franks, Burgundians. Boyars aren’t worth making and Slavs are almost never picked in any competitive tournament. 85 gold and being part of a civ that has 170 hp Camels is the main problem. Doesn’t justify the need to go for them.

@AbledManatee867

It is Lithuanians Halberdier which have 10% speed but in return -1 MA which is trade off

Dude…last “melee armor” is of negligible importance compared to 10% extra speed for an anti-cavalry unit.
And what did you understand from that game to cite it as mamelukes not being able to fight halbs? The only time I see Viper losing his mamelukes was when he tried to snipe monks, trebs and canons. He never lost while taking straight fights with halbs. He clearly mentions around 25th minute how it feels awkward to play light cav-mamelukes combo because of how expensive it is. Thats the only problem with Mamelukes.
He was able to sustain production because he took control over one of Villese’s gold and the neutral gold, otherwise its hard to do so.

[NoraLoralei]

I don’t care, they made Samurai in a tournament I could not be happier.

[Davyman3583]

@Pulikesi25

All of that is true for open and probably hybrid maps as well. I think closed map players would value janissaries more because its not common to invest into a lot of knights and crossbows usually.

This is the correct answer imo. If you play arabia with a regular approach you should be able to produce knights from two stables (apart from the fact that you might be able to raid their eco) while after going fc on closed maps this is not only uncommon its simply not possible. And one stable knights will always lose vs jannis from one castle.

[AriesXBox90]

I think he heavily underrated Gbeto, Teutonic knights and War elephants. He also somewhat underrated Huskarls, Kamayuk and Throwing Axemen, and he overrated Keshik, Houfnice and maybe Plumed archers.

There are so many units in S tier, I think it is better to separate the very best, which would be imo Mameluke, Huskarls, Ballista Elephants, War Elephants and Chakram Throwers.

[FreeWinPlz1739]

@filtercoffee488

Cutting trees is circumstantial. 2. urumis as an example still stands.

1. It explained how they work in small number and do unique task
2. I know nothing about Urumis, I also dont think Chakram and Shrivamsha Riders which are only good for it’s civ should be in tier S.

@filtercoffee488

Except take down buildings as a ranged, archer-like unit.

I already stated that they sacrificed ballistics for extra damage to buildings. I know your example is killing TC. Their damage is still too low if you use them as siege units in small number. It also explained they are bad in small number.

@filtercoffee488

Oh, and destroy all trash units, including their direct counters, skirmishers and condottieros.

You are the 3rd person who does not know units I have seen this week.

1,Condottieros is faster than Janissary, deals 10 extra damage on Janissary, Janissary don’t have extra damage on Condottieros. Condottieros are cheaper in gold which makes them 11 vs 7 against Janissaries. Condottieros kill elite Janissary with 3 hits, Janissary kill Condottieros with 5 hits. Not to mention Janissaries have bad accuracy also can’t use ballistics so they can’t hit anything on the move,

2. Janissary only got minor advantage over Skirm due to 1 extra range on castle age, but they got destroyed by Skirm on Imperial age.
   On castle age, Janissary vs Elite Skirms, Janissary need 3 hits ( actually 6 hits due to 50% accuracy ) to kill a Skrim. A Skirm need 7 hits to kill a Janissary.
   On imperial age, elite Janissary still need 3 hits to kill a Skim ( actually 4 to 5 hits due to 65% accuracy), A Skim need 8 hits to kill a Janissary. 2 Skirms will beat an elite Janissar.
   Skrim is trash unit so it does not need gold. Let’s use market price to equalize their gold cost. Skirms cost 60 F+W that can be covered to 10 gold (100F/W for 17 gold with Guild tech), Janissary use 60 F 55 gold that can be covered to 65 gold. 2 Janissaries need to fight against 13 Skirms on imperial age.

@filtercoffee488

Upgrade it to FU crossbows. The point still stands.

No, what I mean is that normal foot archers got it’s peak power on feudal and early castle age. Janissary is a Mid/late castle age unit when archers are not that powerful anymore. For example, archer can beat scout and early knights but they can’t fight against paladin or massed knight. Knights and archers can trade well against Janissaries anytime so Janissary is not an OP tier S unit.

@filtercoffee488

My bad, TCs don’t outrange HCs. But, I like how you nitpicked one inaccuracy while fully ignoring the crux of the argument. Why don’t you actually address the argument? It works even when you ignore that one part.

No excuse here, you have no position to talk about the unit if you don’t know it. Like I said in previous replies, I know nothing about Urumis so I won’t talk about it.

@filtercoffee488

You are going back to argument I already addressed. You need a mass. Get 20 Janissaries, and see what knights can do.
Yes, this is only possible either in a 1 tc push, or late castle age. But others don’t get HCs till mid-imperial.

Need a mass is a disadvantage against the units that can fight in both small number and big number. Knights can still fight and trade against 20 Janissaries on open ground if you test it yourself ( You can’t hit and run if AI control knight because player controlled knights will approach you on the side that you can’t hit them without ballistics)

@filtercoffee488

So according to you, you don’t place a unique unit in the context of a civ. They must be able to do everything by themselves without any support. Alright then. I guess pretty much nothing is S-tier.

Exactly, this rank is all about unique units themselves.

@filtercoffee488

Houfnice is worthless by this standard. Anything can kill them if they get close enough. A single vil can kill a houfnice.

I think Turks BBC should take its place instead, but Houfnice got the highest DPS against buildings that is more useful as a siege weapon

[FreeWinPlz1739]

@Pulikesi25

You can’t keep losing numbers because they cost 85 gold and you’ll soon run out of gold.

@Pulikesi25

Some great and yet pointless math. Crossbows will be in huge numbers before the first mameluke comes out. Crossbows also outrange mamelukes. So even when you have a sizeable number of mamelukes, crossbows can hit and run and get a lot of value. Most of the times by the time you have 2 castles and mass a decent amount of mamelukes, crossbow player will hit imp and get +3, chemistry/arbalest etc.

If you counter a unit simply with large number regardless of their cost, then I can counter war elephant with villagers.
Archers got advantage over everything in Feudal , early castle age due to their numbers, but it does not mean archers counter them

@Pulikesi25

4 castles, lot of time needed to construct those castles and mass them vs 10+ stables, 1 castle for conscription or maybe two, dirt cheap imp upgrade.

The title is all about unique units, not the economy, castle price and production speed are irrelevant or all the units that don’t not need castle should either be in tier A or tier S.

[filtercoffee488]

@FreeWinPlz1739

Exactly, this rank is all about unique units themselves.

Okay, nothing else I say on this topic matters, then.

But also, I don’t think most people would use your metric, because it is a worthless metric. The game isn’t played based on the things a unique unit can do by itself. There is no point to this metric.

But you can’t place turkish bombards in S-tier based on your criteria. Because first of all, it is not a unique unit. It is a generic unit amped by a unique tech. Secondly, they are useless and horrible by themselves. You have a mass of Turkish bombards? Anything, including villagers, can take them out. They are worthless without another unit to support them.