The problem with this unit is the next: The Korean can accumulate war wagons very easily, if you make many skirmishers, the allie of the korean can kill you very easy with knights, and your ally cannot do anything. Building a castle or more town centers is not a solution either because the arrows do not work vs war wagons. The war wagon (no elite) need a build time change, 21 sec. to 30 sec. or give them negative archer and cavalry archer armor classes (like -2 or -4), so skirmishers are a true counter to them.
7 Likes
Is the double castle WW that’s a pretty busted, specially on Arena TG, you can’t hold up vs like 20 WWs sitting uder your TC wishing you the best of the lucks to counter that (in 1v1 isn’t that OP, but can be), they also have wayyy high base attack for a ranged UU, 9 is too much.
My suggestions:
- Reduce the WW attack in castle age to 7
- Give them negative archer and cavalry archer armor classes (like -2 or -4), so skirmishers are a true counter to them.
- Remove extra attack vs buildings, they shouldn’t have +5 attack as is.
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I like your solution.
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https://www.ageofstatistics.com/cohort_rm_team_closed.html#
Doesn’t look like it is too strong in the stats…
I agree that the strat is strong, but it’s definetely not OP.
You need to communicate in TG and if you see a korean pocket you should prepare and scout if the koreans player is making it. Then one of your pockets should make knights or camels to deal with it.
It’s really not that hard, and it’s actually (at least for me) a very welcome deviation from the currently so extremely stale team game meta. Only because something off meta works against the meta it doesn’t mean it’s OP, it’s just that people are so fixed in their stale tg meta currently that they aren’t capable to adapt anymore.
But it’s still a strategy game, even in tg you must look what your opponents do and adapt.
We also had this kind of silly discussion with burmese and you saw what it lead to, the civ basically lost it’s whole identity. Let’s please keep a bit of off-meta strats in the game so it doesn’t becomes so stale and repetitive.
10 Likes
imo, i agree with almost all the opinions in this thread, either what javi (rockunicorn) saids and casusin reply, i think WW are strong unit in castle age (there are other units more broken that WW) and its strenght is specially because has no effective counter unit. 1 casttle making WW is enouhg to kill skirms spam from 2 archery ranges. A great soultion is what propose FurtherLime, nerf on the armor class, high damage recibed by skirms so they become a proper counter and increase a little bit the creation time. its seems not reasonable that u could won a game just spamming just a single unit.
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Isn’t that the current tg meta? everybody just spamming knights and archers?
(Ok pockets usually boom behind, but the adaption is easy. Just make more knights if you face a korean pocket. Koreans pocket usually are just this one-trick and if you stop it in castle you will get the advantage. It’s kinda easy adaption, just don’t be too greedy against a korean pocket and your team is fine. That’s what a strategy game is about. It’s really not that hard.)
And btw doubling on flanks is a common strategy in TGs anyways, you don’t need war wagons for that. Yes with war wagons it’s slightly stronger than knight/archer but in both cases the pocket needs to assist, so I don’t see the problem with war wagons especially. It’s just a different unit, the strat is the same and the response is also the same.
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totally agree, i hate play arabia TG because all the games are the same, archers + kts, is too boring, but in other maps like nomad is very common to go for UU, and in this scenario u probably dont have a pocket or someone who can help you. i think that the balance for the game should be done for all maps, not thinking only in arabia, wich in my opinion, it is how has been done the latest time (just my opinion)
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We got this problem because ww are so much cheaper than originally. Revert that
2 Likes
There is no problem, the ww is completely balanced. You just need to know what to do against a korean pocket, that you can’t be as greedy as you are used to.
What I could understand if they would remove 2 anti-building damage from the non-elite war wagon. I think that would be fine as then you would have more time to react to the ww push.
Still koreans are not an overpowered tg civ and could actually still use a small buff overall. Not a nerf.
So if there would be changed anything with the ww, there needs to be a compensation for it.
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Add ur elo to ur comments, so it makes easy to understand your point of view.
WW is broken 150 HP 5 PA and 9+2 attack in castle age, they are better than the arambai meme cause they can sit below castle fire and multiple tcs, you can’t counter them unless you have bigger numbers, also the korean is only investing wood and gold, while the counter needs lots of food and upgrades, the korean ww have plagued the arena or walled maps, they melt walls and buildings and tank a lot.
It doesn’t need compensation, what are you talking about, ww got their price reduced before and the armor free is just too much for 150 HP, also its cost is near two archers while it last more than 3.
Only way to nerf it is decreasing attack to 7 and remove extra damage vs buildings for the non elite version.
7 Likes
Ww spam in arena is not at all op in my eyes just make 5 6 monks rewall with stones wall behind and you are fine that is delaying ur boom yes but thats all skirms are unviable in this situation.
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Also that.
Just don’t be so greedy. Only because it’s arena doesn’t mean your walls can protect you from anything til imp. It’s not black forest.
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Remove the extra attack vs buildings, make town centers deal +2 damage to them.
Really the main issue I have seen with them, on BF specifically, is that they can dive town centers with no problem and pick off villagers while guard towers are going up behind them.
They should be a defensive unit mostly, not an offensive one.
So this I agree with.
This… not sure honestly. The counter to war wagons I have found is mass infantry/cavalry. I think that negative armor values (like for the elephant archer) signify deeper issues, and making one unit particularly good at countering war wagons won’t fix the fact you need to get elite skirm, fletching, bodkin, 2 archer armors, and 2+ ranges to be able to outmass in the first place.
Basically this, this guy gets it. On arabia they aren’t that big of an issue, but arena/BF/hideout oh god…
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Still War Wagons shouldn’t be killing skirmishers that effectively, like all other mounted archer UUs dies so hard to skirm spam, also check the Conquistador before DE, the unit was soo unbalanced that was able to kill camel archers and even genitours (units that are designed to counter them) in equal numbers, now they are unde cav archer armor class, they now die hard to skirms, camel archer and genitour as they must, so must the same for WW.
3 Likes
War wagon gets wrecked by elite skirm. You just need to make the numbers.
But thats only on imperial age, in castle age is harder to get the numbers
No it’s castle age.
Elite war wagon actually performs way better against skirms.
The key is against war wagons you need to make a decision, you must make one of knight / elite skirm or camel, get the upgrades, mass and then engage with high enough numbers. That’s how you beat them.
Or monks ofc, but not everybody can monk micro.
If you don’t decide cause you don’t know what to do, you lose.
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The thing with the korean tech tree is that, similarly to the bohemian tech tree, the wagons are designed to counter archers and skirmishers because the civs have 0 answers to them besides that. In imp both civs get an “unique” artillery unit that helps with mass battles- extra range SO and houfnice respectively.
In the same way ethiopians get the better siege, but die in castle age to skirms, britons get full armor LC and vikings get zerks and FU+ champs.
So I don’t think skirms should be that hard of a counter to war wagons, it would hurt the civ as a whole, not just their WW spam in early castle age play.
https://www.ageofstatistics.com/cohort_rm_team_closed.html#
Meanwhile, Koreans only sit around 50% winrate on Arena(and closed map) TG. Is it really broken? Also in Master of Arena (1v1 Arena tournament), Koreans have lowest winrate because WW strategy was easily countered in Higher level.
You just have to train monks. War Wagon just barely faster than infantry/foot archer. Any Melee cavalry counter war wagon when massed.
Koreans are only performing above average in Closed map TG and underwhelming in otherwise. Just nerf WW would kill the civ probably worse than Burmese.
That’s not a fair comparison, other mounted UU or HCA can micro against Melee Cavalry and pike but WW is much slower and clunky that they will have a hard time escape from bad fight. There is a reason why WW wasn’t effective in any 1v1 tournament.
3 Likes
Unnnn…
The war wagons hijack the Koreans, so did the extra-range towers in the past.
I would like to change their class from the cavalry archer into the cavalry + siege weapon, like the scorpion elephants. They will not be benefited from the free archer armor but being allowed to have high attack bonus against building. It would be better if they could fire a bunch of arrows similar to the organ guns, rather than the current scorpion arrow.
1 Like