Keep the camel bonus the way it is. But Halberdier do something like 40 damage instead of 60 to elephant units. Would halberdiers still be useful vs elephants? How much stronger would elephants become if halbs were nerfed this way? A similar case for Pikemen, who now do 30 damage. (or something like that)
Is this nerf too strong? Would halberdier need to do more bonus damage?
I heard a lot of users say elephants are useless due to the almighty halberdier. Elephants are only useful in slow, boomerfest game on choke point maps like black forest or michi.
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I think the damage against War Elephants is fine. It’s Battle Elephants that need a change. They need their armor class split from War Elephants, so they recieve somewhere between the regular cav bonus damage, and the war elephant bonus damage.
7 Likes
F NO
elephants would be broken specially in team games. And specislly with the new ele centric civs
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Honestly I don’t see elephants used even in team games.
They’re not being used even in boomy black forest maps, as we can see from the ongoing rage forest tournament.
The problem is that they’re too slow, you can’t help your opposing flank/pocket in time with elephants, you can’t run past halbs and go for the eco with elephants, and to afford them you must be really in a strong economic position.
They’re the definition of win-more units.
8 Likes
I’m in favour of this change because you can still counter elephants with monks and pike/halb support. Maybe don’t nerf them so hard though. More like 60 → 50 bonus damage instead of 40.
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I hear people say Elephants are supposed to be a teamgame boomy unit only, but they aren’t even being used there as seen in RageForest and BoA 2.
So much for their supposed high pop-efficiency, and specialization as a “TG unit”.
In stark contrast, Halberdiers on the other hand form 40% of ALL the armies of the entire RageForest tournament on AVERAGE (so it may go even higher) - I actually counted.
So much for their supposed low pop-efficiency, and so much for halbs sukking in teamgames.
All of the above observations point to one thing - That we need to correct our assumptions about both, the Halberdier unit on the one side, and the Elephant units on the other.
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This is the truth.
I remember a game between Jordan and Tatoh in which Jordan was clearly winning also way ahead in economy, and the battle was between a mix of normal units like Pikes, Arbs, Light Cav and Skirms.
But the moment he started making Ballista Elephants, he started falling behind and the casters were screaming that this unit isn’t useful here at all, it is a waste of resources, it will do nothing etc etc.
Think about it, they said “Ballista Elephant wil do nothing, is a waste of resources” even though his opponent was going for a majority Arbalest army.
They were literally laughing at the mere sight of Ballista Elephants rightly predicting that Jordan might lose the game because of making that particular group of Ballista Elephants. Which indeed happened.
Elephant units are so underpowered that they made a pro player in a ridiculously dominant position (20 more vills, faster Imp AND more upgrades etc.) lose his game completely despite top tier micro, and despite being against a cheap Arb-Pike (not even Halbs, not even Plate Mail) combination.
People already intuitively know that Elephant units are a massive drain of resources, and extremely unreliable, now its just the time to articulate what’s really happening to the Elephant units.
2 Likes
Since then I haven’t seen Jordan make Elephants (in any non-trolling game), Jordan has learnt too that Elephants are far too costly, and completely unbalanced as they currently are
And I watch Jordan’s streams periodically
Same with all pro players actually, just that Jordan is the latest one I remember
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I have yet to see war elephants made in any of the games I watch streamers play practicing or playing for rage forest. They are supposed to be THE BF unit and all I see is Paladin.
I’ve also watched slam go for elephants as Burmese in BF and they melted to halbs and he made another unit cause they went from winning to losing their side.
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u want battle elephants to have no counter except monks 11
maybe cause a mobile unit from stables is better than endgame powerhouse from castle
How about you play against 50 Khmer or Persian elephants on black forest/hideout/oasis first, then suggest ridiculous stuff.
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I have proposed a couple of times. I would do it this way:
- Pike-line don’t make extra attack bonus against Eles besides the cavalry armor bonus (26 per hit in total for Pikes, 38 for Halbs),
- Eles have 0,95 speed (1,05 with husbandry), This way Pike>Ele / Ele (w/husbandry)>Pike / Pike (w/Squires)>Ele (with or without husbandry)
- Eles TT rised to 30 sec.
- Scorpions now have more bonus attack against War Elephant armor class (like +16/18)
-Finally, make Ele units fill 2 pop space. We already have units that broke the pop space rule.
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some civs dont get halb. u want them to insta lose to all elephant civs?
Mix with monks and/or scorps… Going for Elephants is a huge investment compared with full pikes… and almost never worth it. None elephant civ is dangerous because of them, even with multiples bonus backing up
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so they add light cav and won
… You already have pikes…
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You lost me at the two population part.
No!
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historically actually skirmishers (though different than the ones in the game) have been effectively used against eles.
I wonder if this would be an option to make skirms do bonus damage vs eles but pikes + halbs less bonus damage.
But the biggest problem of eles is still just their low speed. / bad micro potential
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Good stuff, except 2pop space for Eles. No to this part. But good thing buffing Scorps, they can even have bonus vs Cav.
Actually, Hand Cannons could have bonus vs Eles as well.
Why is the 2pop a problem for you?