With the Chams.
If the Southeast Asia-featured DLC has to include 3 or 4 civs, then the Nuosu who built Nanzhao, or the Javanese from Malay split.
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I understand the kingdom of champa is different to dai viets but vietnamese seems to have both combined already.also there is the issue of splitting north and south vietnam which might causus unnecessary tension related to recent history.
Does it ever feel like we are debating and conversing in circles on this topic?
Forget it. I tried a visual gag but the editor was dumb and wouldnāt co-operate.
But yes, it often does.
It can be with the Mons or the Visayans tooā¦
Yes, letās save ourselves those questionsā¦
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The warfare of the Chams about usage of navy and Austroasiatic crossbows could be interesting and makes them pretty different from the existing Vietnamese civ. Iād like to make Austroasiatic crossbowmen as the UU at Castles. They could be Karambit Warrior-like very cheap archers, using 0.5 pop and dealing the poison damage, and they could also even have a chance to be designed as female units since women were considered to have made significant contributions to the military of this matrilineal society.
I do not know the Vietnamese government, but I just guess they are softer attitude toward the Chams than the Chinese government toward the Tibetans.
Mons have close relations and common points like the languages, cultures, customs, etc. with many nearby civs like Khmer, Burmese and Siamese, which means many civs can represent them reasonably. Most importantly we donāt know what can make they special from those nearby civs. I havenāt find some resources about their military that are easy to read.
The medieval Filipinos, including the Visayans, might have similar issues. The history of Philippines before Europeans came is lacked a bit to me. Sure we can outline how their society worked before the 15th century like to some extent by records from Chinese and Muslims, but personally still not enough to attract me.
Donāt get me wrong. You absolutely can support them, but itās just that I would put them lower priority than Siamese, Chams, Nuosu and Javanese for a Southeast Asia-themed DLC.
NOTE: I am generally not in favor of adding more civs for competitive play. Regardless, there is space for many civilizations, certainly in Asia.
Tibetans. Khitans, Jurchens, Tai (Ayutthaya), Tanguts, Nepalis, Uyghurs, Uzbeks, Khazars, Hephthalitesāothers would argue the Gokturks, but the Gokturks are TURKS by every metric possible and they opposed and collaborated with each otherāand those are just off the top. I even left out tons. I wonāt even get started breaking down the Indian subcontinent. While Dynasties of India was nice and all, 4 civs cannot represent an area roughly the size of WESTERN EUROPE
The Turks in the game represent the Oghuz Turks, aka Turkmens, including the most famous Seljuks and Ottomans. Roughly they can be seen as the Turkic peoples who were embraced Islam and migrated westward.
The Tatars in the game cover the Turkic peoples after Mongols raised and influenced by Mongols, so the Uzbeks, descendants of the Chagatai Khanate, may be represented. Also they might probably cover the Turkic peoples embraced Islam earlier in the Central Asia, like Karakhanid Karluks.
The Cumans in the game cover the Turkic peoples in the north of Caucasus and east Europe. They were influenced by and interacted with Europeans much so currently they do not only represent Cuman-Kipchaks but also Khazars.
The Gokturks, in the other hand, are supposed to cover not only the Gokturks themselves but also other early medieval Turkic peoples in the East and Central Asia like the Tiele tribes, representing the Toquz Oghuz, early Karluks, Turgesh and Uyghurs. Roughly they can be seen as the Turkic peoples who believed Tengri and lived in East and Central Asia before Mongols raised.
It seems to me that religion, location and time are a good way to see why we need the Gokturks. Even you donāt want to introduce them, they are currently covered by Tatars instead of Turks. If they covering so much are not considered for introduction, how can a more specific option like Khazars be considered?
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Yes, itās okay, Iām just throwing out namesā¦ PS: Arenāt the Javanese Malays too?..
The kingdoms of Lavo (468-1388) and Sukhothai (1238-1438) alsoā¦
Yes, having the Turks, Cumans and Tatars in the game it is difficult to represent the Khazars as a separate civā¦the Khazars were conquered by the Cumans in 969, then the Cumans by the Mongols in 1241 and then they belonged to the Tatars until 1502, being finally conquered by the Russians of AoE 3 between 1556 and 1634ā¦
In game Malay would currently represent Javanese, but the best way I can explain it is Malay represents Malaysia and Javanese would represent Indonesia.
It doesnāt change much eitherā¦
The game uses Blumenbachās view of racial categorization, where the Malay race is used to represent the ābrownā people of Asia. This racist term is already outdated by now and has been replaced by āAustronesianā in the academic circle.
In real life, the Javanese is not a Malay, even during the medieval and early modern era the Malays described themselves as the people of Malacca and Johor. Interestingly the Srivijaya Empire, which is understood as Malay in modern historiography, never called themselves such: The word Malay applied to their rival, the Malayu kingdom of Jambi, about 120 km Northwest of their location.
Using Malay in place of Javanese is not historically accurate, itās like lumping together China, Mongolia, Japan, and Korea as one civ called M0n90 l oyd. (pardon me the word got censored).
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I understand, I understand, well, like they did with the Indians in DoI, they can change the name of the Malays or put the Javanese apart from theseā¦
So the peoples of Java and Malaysia arenāt genetically related?
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Poor comparison. Genetic does not equal civilization or ethnicity.
Not his fault. If you talk of racial categorisation / classify people by skin colour, genetics automatically comes to mind.
Any chance we see new civs this year you think?
If we do, will probably be in the latter half.
I donāt think thereās any more announcements for this year. Considering this event was all about what is coming this year and AoE3 DLC and AoM is expected at the end of the year.
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So it seemsā¦
Most Malaysians of Javanese descent have assimilated into the local Malay culture and speak Malaysian as a native tongue and first language rather than the Javanese language of their ancestors. This occurred through usual assimilation, as well as intermarriages with other ethnic groups. This qualifies them as Malays under Malaysian law. The situation is identical with the Javanese in Singapore, where they are considered Malay.
Yes, itās quite a topicā¦
There will probably be another dlc at the end of the year in September or December (I joke that itās going to be the Kings of West Africa custom historical battles)ā¦since the Baltic dlc for AoE 3 will probably be released in August or October and then AoM Retold and in November a new dlc for AoE 4ā¦