What other Asian civilizations do we need?

Age of Empires II: DE II - Discussion
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I know Upmost has already replied to you but still I wanna jump in and add my cents.

It’s evident from the East Asian architecture, the HP bonus on archers / cavalry archers, the in-game language, and the AI player names that the Vietnamese civ only covers the Dai Viet kingdom and not Champa.

From both a historical and a gameplay POV, I think the Chams deserve to be a new SE Asian civ. From a historical POV, for much of the AoE 2’s time frame they were independent from the Vietnamese and not only that also fought many wars against the Dai Viet. They spoke an Austronesian language related to Malays and Visayans but different from Vietnamese which is an Austroasiatic language. They were also skilled sailors and pirates and often preyed upon passing merchant ships in the South China Sea. During their heyday in the late 12th century, they practically dominated much of the trade that went over the surrounding seas, giving rise to the name Sea of Champa for what we now call the South China Sea, which is a relatively recent term.

From a gameplay perspective, it doesn’t matter whether you focus on their prowess in navy or in piracy, or maybe their usage of Austroasiatic crossbows and the employment of women soldiers like Upmost already mentioned, they would play out very differently from the current Vietnamese civ.

I can share with you my take on the Chams, my focus being their prowess in navy and raiding, with the UU being the Mangpung which is an amphibious raiding unit. Overall they would have strong navy and above average archers and infantry but weak siege and weak stable.
User blog:MNOPSC1b/Chams (potential new SE Asian civ for AOE 2) | Age of Empires Series Wiki | Fandom

Just like you said, the only issue preventing their introduction into the game may be political. However, from what I heard (I’m not Vietnamese so please don’t quote me on this), the Vietnamese government seems to be more lax or more tolerant on these issues compared to the Chinese government, so there’s still a chance for the Chams to be introduced.

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313

Yes, I hope so… so they can enter with the Siamese…

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My dream South East Asian DLC would be Thai, Mon and Cham, getting all three is probably very unlikely.

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315

Well, DoI brought 3 civs so the same thing can happen quietly…

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Yeah I don’t think devs will ever add them.

317

What about Lao? I honestly don’t know much about them. They seem to go under the radar. Anybody a Lao history expert? would they make a good civ?

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They’re very similar to Siamese / Thais both in terms of language and culture, I think they could be covered under Thais.

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The issue with the Mons is that they can sort of be represented by the Burmese and the Khmers, and also their military history in the medieval era is not well documented. They seemed to be a rather peaceful people and it’s hard to make an interesting civ out of them.

For me the top priorities of potential new civs in SE Asia are Chams, Siamese, and Javanese.

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If you guys like to see new Asian civs in the game you can check my civ designs.

So far I’ve made 4 civ designs over on the Wiki Fandom, 3 of them are East & SE Asian and one is Andean / South American.

Here’re my civ crafts:

Chams: SE Asian naval and archer civ, with strong navy and above average archers and infantry but weak siege and weak stable User blog:MNOPSC1b/Chams (potential new SE Asian civ for AOE 2) | Age of Empires Series Wiki | Fandom

Bo / Baipu: East Asian archer and monk civ, with above average archers and cavalry, okayish infantry, but weak navy and siege. I know Upmost likes to call them Nuosu but I go by the historical terms Bo or Baipu User blog:MNOPSC1b/Bo / Baipu (potential new East Asian civ for AOE 2) | Age of Empires Series Wiki | Fandom

Tangut / Minyak: East Asian camel, infantry, and trade civ, quite strong cavalry and above average infantry and archers, but comparatively weak siege and navy, though their Siege Towers have a trick up their sleeves User blog:MNOPSC1b/Tangut / Minyak (potential new East Asian civ for AoE 2) | Age of Empires Series Wiki | Fandom

And finally the Chimus: Andean / South American infantry, navy, and defensive civ, with strong navy and infantry, and would play rather defensively User blog:MNOPSC1b/Chimu (potential new South American civ for AoE 2) | Age of Empires Series Wiki | Fandom

I know some of my designs and units might be somewhat gimmicky, but they’d be fun to play with if they’ll be added to the game. I’d like to hear your advice and suggestions about my civ designs.

321

A good Mon campaign would be Wareru the founder of the Hanthawaddy kingdom you fight in the Burmese campaign 250 year later.

The reason that the Mon seem to look so similar the Burmese, Khmers and Thai because they copied and learned a lot from the Mom, often the scribes and priests were Mon.
(If we ever will have an elephant “Warrior Priest”, the Mon will be the best candidate.)

It is an imperfect comparison but you could compare the Mon to the Romans, the Romans were inspired by the Greek culture (like the Mons were inspired by India) and a lot of medieval kingdoms in Europe were inspired by the Romans. Like the Burmese, Khmers and Thai kingdoms taking a lot of cue from the Mon.

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I understand that the Mons founded the earliest civilization in SE Asia and greatly influenced later ones in terms of religion and culture. However this game focuses on military mostly and without a well-documented military history it’s hard to make a civ out of them. The only thing that I can think of now is that they should have decent Monks and Monastery techs, but other than that can’t really think of anything about their military. Maybe something like an Elephant Skirmisher or Elephant Monk is possible, but even those sound kind of generic.

But don’t get me wrong. I’m not against their addition into the game, it’s just that I don’t think they’re the top priority when it comes to SE Asia.

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323

It is true that there seem very little English sources about the Mon.
How I would image them beside good monk and elephants, is to make them more or less mirror opposite to the Thai.
Let the Mon start strong but let them taper off in the late game. While the Thai will be beter in the late game and focusing on gunpowder.
Thematic it would be on point, the Thai were the “new kids on the block” in SE Asia, while the Mon were one of the earliest.
(I have a few ideas how to design it but I don’t think this is the right topic to share that.)

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The Lao people are a Tai ethnic group native to Southeast Asia, who speak the Lao language of the Kra–Dai languages. They are the majority ethnic group of Laos, making up 53.2% of the total population. The majority of Lao people adhere to Theravada Buddhism. They are closely related to other Tai people, especially (or synonymous) with the Isan people, who are also speakers of Lao language, native to neighboring Thailand.

In reality the Laotians would be the Tai without h…the Thai of Thailand are a subgroup within the Tai…if you only include the Tai you already represent the Laotians and the Siamese…

True, it’s quite a topic…it would be interesting to see how the devs resolve it, since in SEA there were many small peoples and then large empires like the Khmer and Burmese and the Mon, Tai and Vietnamese kingdoms in the middle…

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Woku pirates invaded philippines so there would be interactions between japanese and malays which is what we have for philippines ingame.

1582 Cagayan battles - Wikipedia.

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  1. They weren’t official and did not represent the nation of Japan hence doesn’t represent formal contact

  2. Most Wokou were of Chinese origin, only a small portion was Japanese Ronin

  3. 1582 was at the very end of AoE 2’s time period, you might wanna call it AoE 3

  4. Filipinos and Malays aren’t the same either

  5. Off-topic comment you should post it in the other thread

327

Well then just call them the Tais

Laotians and Siamese are just too similar to one another to be made into distinct civs

I speak some Tai Lue language from Sipsong Panna in Yunnan and even I can communicate with Laotians and Thais without any issue

And I know other Tai-Kradai languages in South China as well such as Zhuang and Hlai, they’re also very similar to Laotian and Thais

Once you’ve mastered one Tai-Kradai language you can understand another one without effort

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Yes, I consider that the Cagayan battles could be seen in AoE 3 to be able to play with the Spanish against the Japanese and Wokou units…

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Yes, of course…you put in the Tai and that frees you up to put in another SEA civ, be it Mons, Chams or both…

329

I’d still really want to see China broken up into dynasties with Chu Ko Nu / Fire Lancer being the civ unit.

Tang → Villi rush civ, Neo Shang.

Has two unique villagers available at Feudal and Imperial Age, which are combo villies / swordsmen or villies / hussars.

Starts with 4 villagers (less than current Chinese), + a Fubing (unique villager/militia hybrid that’s okay at fighting) instead of a scout.

Castles can also receive resources and build gold-cost villagers as well as mounted villagers (Mubing) in imperial.

Very weak in Imperial Age, infantry focused. Team bonus gives them +1 to villager attack.

Hangtu Walls Imperial Age Unique Technology upgrades Palisade Walls and Outposts substantially, with triple HP. and gives them a new sprite. Frontier Castle Age UT gives Outposts an attack and the ability to garrison units, allowing you to Outpost drop with Villies and Mubing (neither Fubing nor Mubing can start buildings) in a Castle Age timing attack.

Intended to be lame: if villie rushes and tower rushes were a civ, it would be Tang.

Song → Current Chinese civ. Give them a better Arbalester (combo Composite Bowman / Longbowman, i.e, less range than Longbowman, 5 and 6, bonus damage vs piercing armored units equal to half the pierce armor) to compensate. Shenbi Nu is the name, I think.

Rocketry and Great Wall moved to Ming, with Song getting Fiat Currency (you get a one-time partial refund on all your units that cost gold), and Daoxue in Imperial Age (otherwise known as Neo-Confucianism, which reduces research times on all researches and further reduces research costs).

Ming → Chinese with better late game, starts with 7 villagers, meaning they have to build a house immediately and have no scout. Unique mechanic is that Ming’s villagers cost 10 gold on top of food costs, and work 5-10-15% faster in Feudal / Castle / Imperial Age, to represent the burgeoning Ming economy and high levels of corruption.

Unique unit: San Yan Chong, mounted Chinese multi-shot hand cannoneer with reduced range (3 or 5, depending on how much damage they deal).

Versatile civ with decent cavalry, and pikemen line have 20% extra HP so they’re more viable as mainline units, but archers are weak (Ming dynasty crossbows were unexceptional and the Ming focused on their gunpowder for ranged warfare instead). Has Fire Lancer instead of Chu Ko Nu, where the Fire Lancer has only 2-3 range (elite) but deals a rapid stream of low melee damage. The Fire Lancer, like the Chu Ko Nu, has cooldown, so it’s a high damage short-term burst of flames, then the Fire Lancer stopping to reload.

Rocketry and Great Wall are moved here, but Rocketry buffs Fire Lancers and San Yan Chong instead of Chu Ko Nu (+1 attack).

Team bonus: +1 pikemen-line attack making pikes better units against non-cavalry.

Rework of Chinese, IMO, would create some interesting strategic options (Tang are now Chinese Goths with villager rush and castle age tower spam), Song’s Chu Ko Nu are nerfed from their present incarnation, but now have Shen Bi Nu to counter Onagers, and a timing attack by a large Song force can be reinforced by Fiat Money to give you a lot of gold, Ming is deathly afraid of being raided, but if their villagers can stay alive, they get a huge production bonus in Imperial Age, pikemen walls providing huge meatshield spams, and San Yan Chong cavalry laying the hurt while you still have gold).

And removing Chinese takes away the political issue of “Jurchens aren’t Chinese / Tibetans aren’t Chinese”.

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It seems fine to me… although you would need 3 campaigns, 15 AI and a wonder for the Tang, Song and Ming and put the Song in the Genghis Khan campaign and the Ming in Lake Poyang historical battle and the Le Loi campaign…

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Well Tais would probably be the better term to cover all Tai peoples.

But even if you name it Siamese I think it can still cover at least the Thais, Laotians, and Shans due to the high similarity of their languages and cultures.

Some people tend to equate Wokou as Japanese only when in fact it was a multi-national trade/piracy organization with Chinese being the majority. According to Ming records, at least 70% of them were of Chinese origin whereas the rest 30% were Japanese and others. Several important Wokou leaders such as Wa()ng Zhi and Limahong were also of Chinese origin.

And yes, I agree that Wokous are a better fit for AoE 3 due to the time period they existed.