rather because starcraft almost died, competitively, it is that it prophesies evil to other games, like why Jimrising left starcart to live off twicth
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Ok lets recap how E-Sports actually killed the RTS genre.
In Retro perspective, each once great RTS Series and Developer was sabotaged.
We had nice Empire Earth Series, killed with Empire Earth 3.
We had nice C&C Series, killed with C&C3 Red Alert.
It bankrupted the best RTS developer team to a point where they were forced to make C&C4TT.
We had nice Earth 2140 and Earth 2150 they were like Warzone 2100,
killed by Earth 2160 which is pretty much Grey goo.
Do I need to remind how massive Relics Dawn of War 3 did flop?
And what about age of empires online? Without the modding teams by AoE2 who did keep the games for free alive, Aoe Series would be dead too.
Casual is also bad for RTS games. You wont waste money for games that are boring.
At this point, itās very clear RTS developers canāt do E-Sports and market doesnt like Casual RTS.
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I can only speak for Empire Earth as I know that game very well and it was never designed for esports. It received a total of two patches if I remember correctly, had quite some balance issues and came along with a lobby that had no ranked mode but lots of different game modes that were fully customizable, like start and end age, pace, starting villagers, map sizes, start ressources, gather rate, pop cap many great scenarios from a powerful scenario editor created by dedicated fans. People even created a second world war scenario with a huge europe map, dday landing at the normandy, it was so much fun having all those possibilities.
It had so much more possibilites for casual players than both AoE4 (and probably also AoE2) and it still died. What killed it was the lack of support from the developers for both the casual and competitive scene as cheating was a thing too. It had moderators that were in contact with the devs to ban cheaters but the community had to do the ressources calculation on their own and provide screenshots for proof. What killed the series was Empire Earth 3 that was just a super bad and buggy game overall. I donāt know a single person that liked that game.
I completely agree with @Amphiprion6 that RTS should cater to both, competitive and casual players in order to be successfull in the long run.
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As a fan of the EE series, EE3 does not exist, one of the biggest nonsense of the RTS.
Regarding what you say, it is true. 20 years ago, perhaps a casual RTS could be done and it could do better, today, in 2023, with such a competitive market, casual PvE, mods, and PvP demands must be met.
None of those games was āe-sportā game, SC2 was the first RTS game e-sport oriented and one of the first game with āe-sportā in their mind.
Ofc RTS is not the most popular gender, we know that, but when you see how many peaple tried AoE4 at launch mean you have still a market for an AAA game.
AoE2:DE work pretty well and he is e-sport and casu oriented.
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There are players here who still believe that they live in the 90s or 2000s and donāt adapt to the current generational demand.
And to the one who said that AoE2 was alive with mods is partly true, as another part is true that there were years of PvP and a competitive community behind it.
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Back in the days people make stuff from passion, now everything is money.
Bad music, bad games, bad movies.
Everything is selling but nothing is remembered while there are stuff in the 90 - 00 that people will talk about even after 30 years .
Isnāt about people canāt adapt , I play league quite often, plenty of people play dota and cs but when something is bad and made without passion itās so obvious.
I heard songs that have bilions of viewers and listeners, few years after no one remember them, on the
opposite side you have songs from Mozart, Bach, Vivaldi from the classic era which music is 500 old. AC/DC, Metallica, Queen and many more from the rock era. 2pac, biggie, Rakim, Nas, Dmx, Big L and many more from hip-hop era which people still listen rather than the new āhip-hopā.
This can be seen in every aspect in current years, no one make things from passion and love and that is the only thing that make your creation last, when you put your love in it you give the game soul which will last.
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I can sum that up in one word: Nostalgia.
It is the people who decide which product is good for the majority, there has always been business, there are always good games (within high competitiveness). It will be the people who decide if the trend is changed or not.
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sc2 esport worked because the initial gud campaign that comes with it and the quality of it on release and the fanbase is consolidated together unlike aoe which each aoe has a taste and e sport only comes from aoe 2 so the 50% of player only wants the old rts style. This is not nostalgia. is the reality and ppl denying it are only making it harder.
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There have always been bad products, they are just are no longer remembered.
Big problem is, most movies and games are designed right now by Metrics and statistics.
Thatās why games today are so generic and movie characters so lame.
Exactly, this is on very many levels wrong for games.
The gaming isnāt some kind of Disney film for all ages or fast food.
This type of thinking comes from paid reviews, who do copy and paste articles.
There is no ādiversity and unityā by players, we are different,
distinct groups of people with different interests who have nothing common with each other.
The casuals just donāt have the cognitive capacity to enjoy real games,
for various reasons, they are not old enough, not mature enough or too tired to play real games.
Competitive are not true gamers either, they are rather a swarm-intelligence, to play most popular games.
They wonāt play games that are unpopular or mediocre, even good once if there are not enough people.
True gamers seek journey and challenge, for them the RTS games of old were the prefect product, something where skill matters, but you have fun spending your time with it.
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Yeah,it could work tooā¦
Yeah,we hope too that happensā¦i miss the era that we had amazing expansions and we didnāt need to think that one game need to be an āe-sportsā for work and sell wellā¦
Yeah,the same,the devs had to nerf the Flemish Revolutionā¦
Well in the case of DoW 3 the devs returned to the mechanics of DoW 1, but wanting to focus so much on being a Moba failed ā¦ in the case of CNC4 was going to be an Asian spinoff, but EA decided to make it the fourth installment of the saga, they put a hasty story and eliminated the construction of buildings to make it faster, the devs told EA āguard, which is not a CNCā, but EA did not listen and came out what came out ā¦ just as that did not kill the saga, what killed it was the cancellation of CNC (2013)ā¦
Yes, for me that game is the real AoE 4ā¦
Hera left AoE 4 because he wanted more competitiveness and switched to LoL xdā¦
Of course, I wouldnāt have said it betterā¦
There is no that, the pleasure is mineā¦
LoL was born from one of Dotaās devs, he founded Riot in 2009 and the rest is historyā¦
Thatās trueā¦Although in between the life of AoE Online we had AoE 2 HD and AoM EEā¦
Red Alert 3 did not kill the CNC saga but CNC4 and still we had Generals 2 or CNC2013 later, although it was canceled by the same EAā¦
I was looking at pictures and I should try themā¦ I read that Earth 2150 did not succeed because it had two heavyweights like AoE 2 and CNC Tiberian Sun that overshadowed itā¦
Thatās very trueā¦ I agree on everythingā¦ They are different times and different tastesā¦
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I can and I do.
fun fact. Just watched that Stormgate gave some insidesā¦ it will be probably have Creeps just like DOTA.
everyone love to make bold suggestions. without any reliable source.
wtf?
wake up and ask some friends.
Moba players literally were born from w3ā¦ and now you claiming that there is no overlap.
w a k e u p.
hate to break it to you but current moba playerbase has little to do with players of original dota custom game, og dota was 20 years ago after all, so little that it makes no sense to try to cater to those players
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So he is right? and Witcher players play RTS?
Probably i live in parallel universe with parallel friends.
in fairness i donāt know your friends, but they donāt represent the full distribution, and yes, plenty of witcher players play RTS, even some sandbox players as well as FPS people, then you have grand strategy, and only behind all of these there are mobas, at much lower procentage
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My friends are Grubbyās chat:
\https://www.twitch.tv/grubby
What are your frineds? ohā¦stop making bold statements like:
No they do not. They play Cyberpunk
Open aoe4 streamers and check intersection of aoe4 streamers and Dota or LOL
\https://twitchtracker.com/games/498482
Letās just remind:
demuslim, hera, grubby.
KillerPinguin was dota caster.
(there are also a few other namesā¦but they speak on local so does not matter).
Itās not just streamersā¦ itās their auditory watch both RTS and Dota.
Soo What are your āfriendsā?
Screen your top 5 games.
Supper interestingā¦ what are you playing except aoe4.
may be you have 5k hours in witcher and aoe4. would be super wierd.
I agree with you about players often playing multiple genres of game, but given how popular MOBAs literally came out of the creators / maintainers of DotA itself (IceFrog with HoN then the much more successful DotA 2, and I believe Pendragon for LoL), this doesnāt track. These games got their start from the mapmod, and the community that powered it.
There are even DotA (mapmod) purists, much like we have Age purists (and RTS purists / traditionalists) generally. DotA 2 and LoL cast a very wide net, but thereāll absolutely be folks who were there back then still playing now. I know folks from 2010 that are still active in DotA 2 now.
The things is, as genre you donāt get āoutweight or overshadowedā by bigger and more successful games, you still get a big piece of the pie. Earth 2150 did have 2 very big add-ons, The Moon Project and Lost Souls, which clearly shows how successful it was.
RTS games of old were successful, as long, the concept was to experience a single player story.
Because people did migrate from one game to other.
A lot of people simply donāt understand one concept of DOTA.
What DOTA2 actually did, was to be one of the first free2play games.
Most People play that game not because they want to, but because they have to.
DotA wasnt even original back in 2003, there have been various games that did experiment with RPG and arena game mods. The Gladiators: Galactic Circus Games, Command & Conquer: Sole Survivor, Rage of Mages II: Necromancer or Hersog 2 from year 1990
One simple and serious question, but what other genre is e-sports forced to be a criteria?
Somehow only by RTS. Figher games, 4x games, city managers, RPGs, turnbased , racing games, dark souls games, can be fun story games with next generation graphics, only RTS is not allowed to be itself.
Check for example recent RTS fail with The Settlers: New Allies 2023, that for some reason needed to be dumbed down for e-sports, so flopped and failed.
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thank you, finally someone brings the million dollar question up and its true, even in counter-strike of all games loud minority isnāt pushing with esports and tourneys this badly
and unfortunately, it seems that aoe4 devs, or rather the managers calling the shots, never asked themselves about this
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