Where you can contact the devs for balance changes? (Kipchak Buff)

#1

welcome. I need one important tweak.

where you can contact the developers with balance changes?

I know there is some site, or channel or something where you can contact those pple, for balance tweaks.

was that on discord?

or are they reading these forums too? I dont think they care much about those posts here.

PLEASE give the kipchaks +1 base damage. so that they have 9 dmg instead of 8.

they were HEAVY nerfed since they came out. lost a lot of hp and rate of fire.

and they WOULD be really fine and good, if you give them 9 dmg instead of 8.

the problem is, that without bracers, they lack damage and range.

and the lacking range, COULD be fine for them, cause they play an different role. more close ranged damage. but the dmg on close range SHOULD be way higher. just 1 dmg more.

cause I see it in my own games, and even viper said that, that their dmg feels to low. and it is rly true. they are good vs pikes, but they need very long for killing infantry, and for palas extremly long. even if you have 30 kipchs. you cant oneshot a pala? with that mass arrows? it is nonsense, and plays itself strange.

other archer lines feel stronger, and can kill a pala quicker.

so they feel very weak for an archer line. cause of bracers lacking.

give them 1 base damage more, for just increase their use.

keep the range as it is, if u dont want them to be out of control. but they lack 100% damage and feel a bit weak. just a bit.

even when they are massed, you cant always see/feel their value.

their time frame and kiting is fine and nice to play.

but the dmg is RLY low for an close ranged archer. they need one base damage more, and the unit would be fine.

they lost already rate of fire, hitpoints and stuff. so they need a bit of tuning. and one damage should not be op, but should feel a bit better.

PLEASE FIX THAT.

play the unit, and you will feel that it is a bit weak for an castle unit.

the old version was really good. the original one. but you overnerfed it.

giving them one arrow back was good. one damage more, and they are totally fine.

and the problem is, cumans need this unit. it should have more value on close range.

especially with that mass arrow volleys.

an pala should not survive 100 arrows.

#2

Hi LyricLight76377, welcome to the forums.

So, just to clarify, there’s no direct line between the general public and the game devs. What you can do is exactly what you just done, bring a discussion to the community and let it roll. If this discussion happen to have relevance and reasonable inputs, it is just natural that the DE staff will take notice over it.

And bear in mind that there’s no absolute word on our side, the best approach is always propose your insights as open suggestions, just so healthy conversations can be enabled.

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#3

There are certain users here that are part of the balance committe, and I know for sure that atleast one of them reads pretty much all suggestions. You can also go to aoezone and post it there, but, I must warn you, it’s a rough place. The upper side of aoezone is that la crème de la crème of AOE2 comment there (Dogao, Nicov, Hera, Themax, T90, Memb, Nilii, MBL, etc) of course those guys are in the balance committee aswell.

Besides that, good luck entering that group. They’re quite both selective and hermetic

#4

They are faster than any other unit so buffing them again can be very tricky.

#5

Huge proponent of Kipchak buffs here. I’ve gone into a deep dive before on the Kipchak, and felt that giving Cumans Bracer would have been necessary at one point. I realize now that could break the civ (too many options for their already high strengths), but they really do need more.

I still think that the Kipchak needs 50 base HP, and +1 damage in Imperial Age. Either give it to Elite Kipchak, or give Cuman CA +1 damage in Imperial Age. Kipchak are too weak right now. Yes, they’re cheap, but so are a lot of UUs. They’re pathetic against Cav, particularly, even in giant masses even with a meatshield in front, which doesn’t make sense. +1 damage would be just enough to make it worthwhile, and if too strong in Castle then Imperial +1 (either as a civ bonus or for Kipchaks only) is necessary for the unit IMO.

#6

I’ve read elsewhere the proposal to remove chemistry for Cuman (after all they have no gunpwoder unit at all) and give them bracer in exchange. I guess it could work?

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#7

If it’s just range you want, make the Elite have 5 range?

#8

Kipchaks are completely fine.

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#9

yeah if you wanna make em good, then they need cost increase

1 Like
#10

nice post. yeah I agree with you. totally.

they are cheap, thats pretty good. but on an 200 pop game, they feel a bit weak vs cav. especially vs palas they do pretty low damage. and hit and run is also hard vs palas if they are massed. if you constantly run away from the, you will lose the front line. and then he pushes in your base and you are lost.

I think one damage more would give them a good blast, for an close combat unit as it is.

and I dont think that kipchaks are “cheap”. it looks like that. but on some 1v1 maps wood is a rare thing. and also they are very hard to mass early on, cause of the huge wood cost.

so they are cheap in imp, when you have good wood spots. thats the only thing where you feel it.

I would give them 1 damage more, and see what it does. it will be the same damage vs pikes and others as it is now. cause hellbs die fast. but will buff them a bit vs paladins. and that is all they need.

you should feel JUST A BIT more value of them. otherwise they are good. I like them.

one damage would be enough. cause in some games, it is not pop efficient to mass kipchaks.

I had some games, where I rly could push deeper, with letting my kipchaks die. and producing other units.

I know they would be to strong with bracers. but just give them one damage more. and keep the range as it is. this will make them good and strong, but not op.

with bracers they would be pretty op I think. the mobility and low frame compensates the one range. lacking. but the dmg should be a bit stronger.

in castle age the unit is totally useless and easy countered by anything. with that low hp they die like in 2-3 shots of an skirm lol. without even having counter presure.

kipchaks are only good in imperial age. and then you need a lot of wood and the elite upgrade.

paladins counter them way to easy at the moment.

and massed archers should rape paladins, or at least feel the volley burst on the target that you hit. thats all.

they are not that cheap. because the upgrade is expensive to elite. very. wood is also sometimes rare and hard on some maps. and also you sacrifice some other things, if you focus high on wood gaining.

also they need the university, smith, and also the archery upgrades. to get efficient. it takes a long time to get this unit rolling.

all in all. it doesnt feel cheap to me.

it is hard to get elite kipchaks, in an 1on1 game when you have presure.

I am totally fine with them, when they get one damage more. the burst or dps should feel a bit stronger.

the rate of fire nerf in the past was to much. one damage would balance that out.

kipchaks die pretty fast from skirms. very fast. and they have also low hp and low range. so at least the damage should be good then.

also lacking bracers make your skirms way weaker for trash battles, and your castle defense against raids also.

they should have atleast one base damage more on elite kipchaks, to make them good.

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#11

it is tricky. thats why I would try to give them just one damage. and see how it goes. it should be fine. I would not give them bracers. but the one damage of bracers they really need. you cant have low range and low damage. the dmg of them is only good if you massed them.

but the damage of massed units is always good. no matter which unit you mass.

kipchaks die rly fast vs skirms with that low hp. also vs palas.

I really saw it in some of my games. also in vipers stream.

they lack a bit of damage. their volley should feel stronger. cause they die very fast.

#12

Maxxed out Kipchaks do better than Mangudai vs Skirmishers, actually. One of the best Cav Archers to fight skirms because of the blanket of fire. You need a lot of them though, otherwise they melt really fast.

But I still feel they need 1 damage, confidently.

To mention what you said about Paladins, even 50 can’t one-shot a Paladin. That’s broken. Even if they could one shot a Paladin at 30 (which they should be able to, IMO) it wouldn’t be broken, cause you can’t hit and run forever. Not vs cavalry.

#13

They cost 35 gold. 35!

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#14

well yeah, they aren’t supposed to do hordes of damage to heavy cavalry, that’s kind of the point of the knight line having 2/3 base pierce armor.

its a good thing that cumans have paladins of their own then to fight other paladins.

and yet wood is far more common then gold is. fact is that kipchak is less combined resources then the cav archer is.

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#15

you know how many cav archers it takes to one shot a basic 180 hp paladin? 45. that assumes full attack upgrades.
you know how many Kipchak it takes to one shot a basic 180 hp paladin? 45.
(5 base attack +3 from upgrades - 7 from armor = 1 dmg for the first arrow, the extra 3 arrows do 1 damage each. for a total of 4 damage. 180/4 = 45).

They are without a doubt the cheapest cav archer in the game, and don’t even cost gold to upgrade to elite. on top of this, they have no frame delay.

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#16

Those numbers ignore real world scenarios. Those 4 arrows don’t hit one unit. Usually only 2 hit, the rest miss. That decreases their ability to take out chasing cavalry massively, to the point they’re virtually useless. They also fire 10% slower, have way less HP, and are a unique unit. One extra damage would give them almost even ground to generic CA against cavalry, while not being broken due to castle production. It also wouldn’t make Cuman CA useless— they are still a strong option due to Steppe Husbandry; they mass easily compared to Kipchak.

In line with this, I feel Cumans could benefit from +1 damage to all Cavalry Archers in Imperial Age. Keeps them weaker than other CA civs as they are a cavalry civ, but also keeps CA a strong option with improved Kipchaks.

First and foremost, though, the Kipchak at least needs this +1 damage, and not necessarily in Castle. Imperial Age is fine.

We have precedent for the low gold cost in the Leitis and Keshik, both of which are not weaker due to this cost. Kipchak fare badly against strong targets.

#17

but if you’re talking about a bunch of kipchaks, enough to in theory one shot a paladin, then they are most likely fighting a bunch of other units too. which means those “misses” will hit other units nearby.

they clearly aren’t designed to be an anti cavalry unit.

they also fire instantly, unlike magundai and cav archers.

which shouldn’t matter because the goal is to not get hit.

and make them superior against literally everything else over generic cavalry archer. why should they get the best of both worlds?

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#18

Look at the Leitis and Keshik. Despite how incredibly strong they are (and cheap, gold wise), they haven’t broken the game and we still see Knight-line from these civilizations.

Unique units can be better in most ways than the default unit and still have their place. No-one complains about Mangudai, which are a hardcore steamroll compared to CA; I’d argue that the Kipchak would be less of a clear choice over CA than Mangudai as long as the +1 damage in Imperial Age applied to Cuman CA as well as Kipchak. Steppe Husbandry gives CA a useful strength for Cumans over Kipchak.

CA are also better vs Pikeman, and will still kill Kipchak supply for supply. Mangudai, for example, absolutely decimate Kipchaks unless you have a significant numbers advantage (which does make sense, considering the greater gold cost).

About one-shotting; those arrows don’t always hit a target. Especially while in a chase, and staggered formation reduces this even further. If you’re not hitting the main target, that unit is still chasing you down and will still kill your Kipchak even at 10% HP. Kipchaks melt in melee due to abysmal HP.

My point is, they need a bit more damage. This will not break the unit. It is only +1, and lets them keep up in Imperial Age without breaking them like I believe Bracer would.

As for your other statement on frame delay; that is extremely useful in situations where you can use it. But if you want to force a fight, or the enemy forces a fight, you’re not going to be able to use that if there are both melee and ranged units involved (and any good army composition for Cumans or against Cumans is going to have a mix of ranged and melee units). They need more damage to help in these situations.

Do you use the Kipchak? Have you seen it used in these situations? I have. It’s borderline useless. I love the unit to death because of its raiding ability and powerful micro but it really needs a bit more help because it’s weak spot is REALLY weak. We have units like the Mangudai, Leitis, Chu-Ko-Nu (which have EXTREME base damage, highest of any Archer I believe, and fire even more arrows than Kipchak) and Huskarl around; they all are far better choices typically. Most people would say they are flat out better units overall. This isn’t going to break the unit, it’s going to make it a real viable part of late game compositions (and only if the other player allows you to mass them from castles).

It’s balanced, there’s counterplay, and boosts a really weak lategame use of an otherwise okay unit.

#19

leitis are inferior to paladins against archers.
keshik are inferior against paladins unless in superior numbers, at which point you’re spending more resources.

they also cost more then a regular cav archer, whereas a kipchak is much cheaper.

#20

Leitis are inferior against archers, but still work well. Keshik, I’m not as familiar but they trade well with Cavalier and are gold-effective against Paladins I believe. Not as effective, but they work. The tradeoffs aren’t nearly as big as with Kipchaks. Besides this, Kipchak are inferior to Pikeman and archers as well — Kipchak don’t do well vs ranged units other than Skirmishers.

Context? This was about how Kipchak shouldn’t be better than CA at everything, according to your point. I replied, and said how Mangudai literally are better at EVERYTHING while Kipchaks aren’t (as I reiterated in more detail above) How does cost relate to this point?