Why is Delhi Sultanate So Disliked?

Age of Empires IV IV - Discussion
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Delhi has the LEAST pick rate of any civ for a some time now?? And this you can see across board from low to high rank. Originally I thought, it’s due to Delhi’s difficulty?? But that doesn’t hold because China is as difficult if NOT more difficult than Delhi and has almost twice the pick rate as Delhi?? I thought maybe because the gameplay is extremely extremely linear? But that can’t be it because nobody is more linear than English, HRE, French and those are the 3 MOST popular pick rates in the whole game?

Why is delhi so disliked? Why is delhi so, NOT FUN?? It can’t be win rate because Delhi holds a consistent middle of the pack win rate and again HRE the worse win rate is a top picked civ? So that can’t be it…

This is why I think Delhi is not FUN:

The free research mechanic is functional and rewarding but its implementation is uneventful and laborious. Unless you’re a math guy/gal you get rewarded but don’t even FEEL IT? There is no captivating sound effect or flashy notification; just the same ol’ clashing symbol everyone else gets BUT at least everyone else get their symbol crashing relevantly soon compared to when they had their attention on said upgrade(s). Meanwhile Delhi’s research is a delayed gratification that we often forget about; and often forget to even que it…
My solution is to keep the free research as is, BUT introduce auto research ques! Meaning each time a new building is constructed all the researches in that building/per age will automatically que in a preset priority order. The player can cancel and rearrange the research order as needed. Also whenever an additional building of the same type is subsequently created the remaining upgrades/ per age yet to be completed will evenly split among the additional built buildings! BUTTTT for all this to work and NOT be clunky… Delhi needs a buff. The Buff is All Delhi production builds can NOW simultaneously research upgrades AND produce units. This will greatly alleviate having to cancel upgrades for the sake of production OR even making additional production buildings merely for the same of upgrades.

For example the moment I go to Castle age my stable built in feudal will auto que my Ghazi Raider Veteran upgrade AND it will not displace my Ghazi Raider production; likewise my Archery Range will auto que my Veteran Archer upgrade yet I can still make archers/crossbows AS that veteran upgrade researches.

Next Idea to make Delhi more FUN:
Bring the Elephant to Feudal Age! It’s a must, IMO. We already have the Ghazi Raider which are nice, but it’s not flashy and iconic of Delhi? BUT Elephantos?! Everybody associated Delhi with Elephantos! So give us Elephantos as soon as possible! I recon the Tower Elephant (feudal version) be introduced! Make it have 1 archer on top instead of 2 so it feels like it progresses thru the age ups and upgrades. The cost will need to be adjusted permanently but I address this in another thread. 1000 resources especially 600 gold is a HUGEEE deal in feudal. I’m suggesting something in the 400-500 gold.

Summary

So if researches take care of themselves!? At the lower levels of play, players can enjoy the ease of FEELING like they are being FREELY rewarded. At higher modes of gameplay it will still heavily minimize the upgrade micro especially the simultaneous que of research and production ability!! IMO it will make FREE research feel FUN! And EZZ to manage.

Lastly Elephants… we want more and more Elephants (viable units of course).

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I love all of these ideas. The Delhi Sultanate along with the Chinese have been my mains since launch. rushing to queue up all the techs when i build a building or advance is a big hassle. especially when i have so much to do once i get to castle like secure relics.

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Because Delhi should be elephants, but elephants are very ineffective, they’re not a part of the game. They basically don’t exist.

A bit similar to Ottoman Great Bombard and maybe Mongol Mangudai, they are key to the civ, but in practice it doesn’t exist in normal games.

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I am only able to effectively use elephants to close the game when I already have a big lead and men-at-arms would just be as effective in that kind of position

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I have several…several threads dedicated to the Elephant ineptness :frowning: ;

This was just to consider the FUN factor; People LOVE elephants; sadly they’re locked behind castle age and are expensive and are extremely niche in functionality; and Delhi’s eco is heavily based in resources saved from NOT having to pay for upgrades. Basically what 1 guy pays for 3 veteran upgrades, you get to spend on 1 War Elephant…but that elephant is gonna die and there goes your savings meanwhile the guy’s vet upgrades remains, so are you really at an advantage? Only if you can capitalize on the superior military mass and keep the momentum in your favor.

BUT BACK TO FUN!!! IMO, fun is auto research ques that do NOT impede production capabilities and alleviates micro-management. And Elephants as SOOOOOON as possible.

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Delhi steady has the MOST bugs of any factions;

Now there is a scholar bug in Imp…
Meanwhile Ghazi Raiders still have no bonus damage vs siege; So Delhi is the singular civ with ZERO melee bonus damage vs siege…
And the “buff” grants Imp upgrades to effectively be closer to 9x instead of 12x; assuming you went with the madrasa landmark; otherwise you got to come out of pocket 450w to then get the “buff”… Oh and they snuck in a bug/tempo-less buff to efficient production and piety and forestry. All 3 now research in 1 min if you have ONLY 1 scholar and EXCLUSIVELY 1 scholar housed. The moment you add anymore scholars each of the 3 research default to the standard research speed upgrades.

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I think there are several factors contributing to the low pick rate. First, they don’t have a campaign of their own. Second, they’re listed as 3-star difficulty (which discourages players from picking them - even if I believe that they’re actually an easier civ, just one that plays differently). Third, they have a history of being bugged (even if most of them are now fixed). Fourth, they are a bit of a 1 trick pony civ (though I think that is less the case now than it used to be). The one major factor that I’d expect to raise their pick rate is the elephants, which are a slow expensive unit.

I am a Delhi main, mainly due to the free techs and the way infantry can build walls.

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Delhi plays a lot differently and is not as intuitive for as many people to play. A lot of its power revolves around heavy feudal age aggression and sacred sites which is not a playstyle a lot of people want to play around.

I personally find them a lot of fun (though I wouldn’t mind more elephanto fun)

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borrowing from AOE3;

Delhi should get a tech in imperial that allows them to construct military buildings and towers (standard towers). Late late game this allows to stage a satellite base as the Delhi progresses in military victory and positions.

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like an Imperial Age tech or landmark effect that allows infantry to build military buildings and outposts in addition to their wall building capabilities

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a researchable tech; so its not instantly a thing but becomes a thing in say 5min of Imperial (assuming you had sufficient scholars housed).

It will be an exact copy of AOE3 india tech that allows sepoy to build castles and military production. If relic wants they can limited the ability only to Delhi MAA

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The main issue of imperial Delhi is how long it takes for the techs to research, to the point game is usually decided by the time they finish researching the techs they want. Any extra imperial techs would only help team games tbh.

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Yes but it depends where this new technology is placed. The madrasa is overbooked and production buildings likewise. Can’t do mosque as they are either busy making the additional scholars or researching the last bit of relevant mosque techs. But you know what building can afford to frontload this new technology? The 150w BLACKSMITH!!! Sure bsm upgrades impact kill break points but delaying 1 of those upgrades to get this tech in first? Could be very very functional especially if the devs allow the delhi MAA to build keeps.

What matters more to you? +1 Imperial range armor? Or having say 30 MAA slam down a keep in the face of an enemy???

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I would personally say ranged armor. Having army drop a keep is pretty niche, since they can’t build the keep and fight. Forward dropping a keep usually needs your army to be fighting, and in imp pulling vills is not that hard (especially since Delhi will have like 3-5 TC’s at this time via keeps usually)

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I’d like so much to have Feudal elephants too, and give them a non stackable buff to nearby units, it could be a standard “aura” for tower elephants and a bigger hit buff like warrior monks for war elephants. There should be an incentive to have some elephants in the army, but not to spam them, cause an elephant only army is as ugly as an army without them.

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+1 range armor is excessively niche (specifically the 3rd one); very very few matchups gain a benefit from that late game +1.

Also why wouldn’t you be able to do both? Pull fewer villagers and some infantry to speed up a keep drop. Currently pulling 30+ villagers to keep drop is not inconsequential. Yes you’d basically guarantee that keep goes up but the idle time incurred and potential villagers lost WOULD matter. This tech would significantly mitigation that eco loss while retaining certian assurance of that keep being built.

Also you do know/remember one of the original cancerous mechanics of delhi was Maa spamming stone towers in the face of standing army and there was almost nothing you could do about it?

This would be a rendition of that broken mechanic but in am age where counter play is more feasible. IMO.

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While archers aren’t as common in imp, they are still prelavent. Also +1 range armor makes a huge difference when diving TC or keep fire. It makes raids significantly studier.

Stone towers were more of an issue since they were way cheaper than a keep and you could make a creeping line of them (so if they tried to stop a stone tower, they had to run into range of other stone towers).

Keeps don’t really have the same ability to make a string of connected keeps towards your base.

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This basically summarizes my core issue with AoE4.

The game too easily falls back to the counter trinity. Special units are rarely if ever actually useful and are always designed as if the developers are afraid of them. Unique units that are often in use, tend to fit within the counter trinity, and the game doesn’t feel as flavourful as it could, had they dared to introduce different playstyles.

What’s the point? This is a game, meant to be fun. Yet, we’re stuck playing some professionals fever dream of a game, because it’s “balanced”. Super boring. They’ve taken multiple shots trying to fix elephants. They’re still worthless. These microscopic changes are entirely missing the point. Ironically, the very latest patch which further boosted infantry melee armour entirely negates trample’s low damage. The one buff they were given has been made redundant just one patch later.

Elephants are meant to be Delhi’s unique units. Yet they aren’t and have never been represented. You’d think someone would try to solve this rather than ignore it. When a newcomer watches AoE4, all they see are spearmen and crossbows. In every. Single. Game.

Elephants easily could be the coolest unit in this game that makes it exciting to watch and play. Something that would represent the franchise in a good and fun light. Instead, it is left to decay in some corner because of god knows what. And nevermind every other unique unit that breaks the mold. They too get the “pretend it doesn’t exist” treatment.

I truly, truly wonder. What exactly is “fun” to these developers? Is it to repeatedly smash spearmen armies and archerblobs at each other? Because patch after patch suggests nothing should ever interfere with this dynamic.

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  1. It’s unpoplar beacuse people STILL cant defend age2 knight/longbow rushes.

  2. The community of the aoe series as a whole tends to hyperfocus UU’s as the sole unit a civ has - with tower elephants no longer being invincible since a long time ago, and war elephants being kinda easy to hard counter (slow heavy vs xbow) everyone is ready to ignore it.

  3. It was very popular until the imperial x15 age 4 tech time destroyed it to the foundation. Then we started getting newer civs, otto/malian, and byz/jap along with big remakes abba/mongols/china, so the hype never recovered.

  4. The period of age 2 maa spam left it as one of the civs with no counter to age 2 armor and

Since we have a thread for it, here are some ups for Delhi:

  • Ghazi is one of the best horseman types - extra beefy and bonus vs heavy on a trash unit, good stuff.
  • Features some of the best infantry in the game via forced march and ToV combo- spearmen chase down knights, maa run down xbow, archers outrun horsemen, etc. It’s a bonus that can invert hard counters.
  • Efficient production + civ bonus of palisade building leads to some fairly deadly early rushes/counter rushes.
  • Scholars are prolly the best religious unit in the endgame - can displace scouts for vision, faster than knights, and enable Zeal boost.
  • Tranquil Venue is a permanent Kurultai if you already had ToV, that only needs a 200 wood investment.

Nearly every unit is above average. The only thing Delhi really lack for is siege - and the latest rework took good care of that.

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As a Delhi player, I don’t agree. I really never had problem against French Knights or English Longbow rushes. MAA are far a bigger problem (Point 4), specially OOTD MAA. There is no way to kill them in feudal, you need to go Castle. They cost more or less the same than 2 Ghazis, but 2 Ghazis can not kill an OOTD MAA (not even close).

I really feel that Delhi is great, but is not the funniest civ. The Scholars mechanics are a bit complicated. You have to manage them to double produce, take sacret sites, relics, investigate and heal. You don’t have elephants until age 3 and they are really expensive. In age 3 you need like 10 scholars to investigate at a decent rate, and 20 in Imperial Age. Otherwise, technologies will take for ever and you will not geat the age advantages.
I always play Delhi in Lipany or any other map with 3 well placed Sacred Sites, and I can say that it is a good civ, but I don’t know, it doesn’t just feel fun.

When you play mongols you have Keshiks, mangudais and can move your buildings
With French you have nice looking and powerul cavalry.
With English you have archers with sniper rifles.
With Japan you have samurais (every Japan lover is happy to have samurais)
With China you have Zhuge Nu and architecture
etc

Even the small details like music, architecture, unit skins, voices, etc are important to make a civ really atractive, and Delhi is far behing in these aspects.

Every pro or higher lv player agree that it is a good civ

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I don’t really think this is a good idea. I mean, I would be happy with a better Delhi since is one of my favorites civs, but this is so OP.

This would be nice if well made.

I agree with your post that Delhi needs something that makes them more atractive, but taking care of not buffing an already good civ. To make a civ fun you don’t have to just buff them. People would play the civ to win, but not because it is fun.