Because it is not the same calculation, it is taking into account any unranked game, be it a “ranked kind of game”, FFA, diplo, 3v5 whatever, custom scenarios and modes like CBA. And I actually think there is some more perfecting to do on it, since it is now giving out wins even if you lose in the game (atleast in ffa and diplo modes). But I do like that I can somehow view how I’ve done on these special games from my history and “elo”, even when in the end it doesn’t mean much. However it should not be changed to be an equivalent of HD and DE ranked elo, it is unranked for a reason, it’s just for fun.
(And no matter how you feel, MM is the place to play ranked games at, as clearly explained. If you don’t like it, that’s on you)
Because it is not the same calculation, it is taking into account any unranked game, be it a “ranked kind of game”, FFA, diplo, 3v5 whatever, custom scenarios and modes like CBA.
Well, then it’s obvious how to fix it, right?
By NOT taking into account FFA, Diplo, 3v5 etc. beacuse it’s obviously absurd to calculate an ELO based on a 3v5 game…
But it is unranked elo, it means it’s casual. So it should take into account all the casual games. MM is for ranked gaming. Unranked is for casual gaming.
But it is unranked elo, it means it’s casual. So it should take into account all the casual games. MM is for ranked gaming. Unranked is for casual gaming.
The ELO the way you’re talking about serves absolutely no purpose. Nobody needs or wants that.
What we need is a tool to balance lobby games.
MM is that. Go do it.
MM is nothing like it as I’ve explained a couple of times. If you’re going to repeat such nonsense the discussion is pointless.
It’s funny to see how I’ve been doing in CBA games or FFA. Don’t say nobody needs it when I’m already happy with it myself 11. Still it doesn’t mean much but that’s already what the name implies, unranked.
And I’ve explained there wont be another solution coming for you. They are not going to make the MM system less appealing, that’s just totally unrealistic to hope for.
And I’ve explained there wont be another solution coming for you. They are not going to make the MM system less appealing, that’s just totally unrealistic to hope for.
In other words what you say is: They make the lobbies bad on purpose to force more players into their matchmaking system…
I think it’s obvious that it’s very sad if you need to make one part of you game worse than it could be just to promote the other part of your game. If you try forcing people to play in a way they actually don’t want to play…
A company that operates this way is bound to fail.
They aren’t bad. They work for unranked casual gaming as is their intention. They are bad for ranked gaming, which is also intentional because ranked gaming exists in the Matchmaking as its own.
This may be your feeling, but so far the game has nonetheless kept attracting more players to it than ever before. It is funny if the current system is pretty bad that so many people still play it on a regular basis.
They aren’t bad. They work for unranked casual gaming as is their intention.
I don’t think it’s enjoyable for either side if somebody who can Imp in 30 stomps somebody who can Imp in 1 hour and 30.
And this is exactly what we’re seing now because we have no tool to balance games in the lobby.
And even if for some reason you do think that what I described above is enjoyable: You could also decide to do it if there were ELO in the lobbies. (As long as you find some low ELO dude who’s ready to play against a high ELO dude, that is…)
So there’s absolutely no reason to NOT have that balancing tool in the lobbies.
Absolutely no reason but one: You want to make the lobbies bad on purpose in order to “protect” matchmaking.
It’s a casual game. Not a ranked game. These things happen. You are acting as if a casual game’s balance means somehow more than team balance on CBA? No, no it doesn’t. There’s always going to be unbalance on casual games, that’s why they are casual. Get over it.
They gave a tool, you can view ranked elo in there for a reason. If a person doesn’t play MM at all but still wants to play “ranked”, then that’s his fault not the systems.
Lobbies should not be competing MM for the same role. That would be very bad and stupid design. This is something that people have clearly had a hard time to cope with for the last 6 months. There are no plans for a change to this, even despite the outcry since the launch of the game. And the playerbase has just been growing since, even with all the actual issues the game has had and is still having.
I feel you haven’t brought any new argument that I didn’t already debunk.
If MM would fulfil it’s “role” there would be no desire to have a balancing tool in the lobbies.
But MM does obviously not fulfil it’s “role” for everybody, this is why we constantly see people asking for balancing tools in the lobbies.
And if you have to deny the players this balacing tools just to protect your MM, then this really doesn’t say anything positive about the MM system that you have in place
There will always be desire for many things in this world you know, not all of them lead into something actually becoming real. As you can see from the many threads on this forum too, there is clearly a desire for teutonic knight’s building towers, or mangudai losing their damage bonus against siege. Are those going to ever happen? No. Such will be the case for your desire.
If they are trying to keep casual games as casual games and ranked games on the actual ladder, then I consider that a positive thing indeed. Cause that’s the place where they should be practiced at.
As you can see from the many threads on this forum too, there is clearly a desire for teutonic knight’s building towers, or mangudai losing their damage bonus against siege. Are those going to ever happen? No. Such will be the case for your desire.
Now you’re just being silly. Comparing ridiculous civ balance ideas that would destry the game to adding a much wanted feature that wouldn’t take anything away from anybody is just the proof that you’ve run out og arguments.
If they are trying to keep casual games as casual games
But casual shouldn’t be nonsensical.
And again: There is no reason to deny the lobbies the balancing tool except the fear that this would make the lobbies superior to the MM and therefore have a negative impact on MM.
Now it’s obvious to everybody that this fear (if it’s justified) just reflects very badly on the quality of the MM system. And now that we’ve elaborated that the quality of the MM system isn’t that good, that makes it even worse if they try to force the players to MM.
You can’t get out of that… either the MM is good… and then there’s absolutely no reason to deny the ELO I wish for… or the MM isn’t that good… and then we have an even better argument why we need to make the lobbies better in terms of balance.
No, I was merely showing you that “desire” alone is not going to make change. Those 2 suggestions are completely on their own category though. The actual point was that they aren’t going to make a move that is worse for the MM itself just because there are and have been people who have a desire for it. And I guess that there has been no other address towards this despite the outcry, than the fact that you need to use the MM to get elo that you can show in lobbies to balance your games with, which is still promoting the usage of MM, it’s probably going to be sticking this way too.
Of course, I already explained that they wouldn’t want to make lobbies better for ranked games than MM itself. And that is a good thing obviously. You want to keep the ranked games on the MM and casual games at the lobbies.
If the MM is good or not, it is still the place where the ranked games should be played at, that’s a thing where there’s no way around it. MM is easy and fair and you can’t play just arabia or just arena for high elo.
No, I was merely showing you that “desire” alone is not going to make change.
Well, that’s quite obvious for everything in life, isn’t it?
This is why we’re suggesting the change to those who can make it happen: the devs.
Of course, I already explained that they wouldn’t want to make lobbies better for ranked games than MM itself. And that is a good thing obviously.
That’s just a crazy thing to say. How is it a good thing to support an inherently sh*tty system by making the system that easily could be better worse on purpose…
It’s like saying the Berlin wall was a good thing because it kept people inside the pseudo-socialist GDR where they belonged…
If you need to put up a wall to keep the players in matchmaking, obviously something with matchmaking isn’t right.
If the MM is good or not, it is still the place where the ranked games should be played at, that’s a thing where there’s no way around it.
Such a nonsense. Do you even read what you’re saying? It’s like promoting a failed dictatorship who tells the people they have to stick with the bad dictator because “that’s a thing where there’s no way around it”
What an argument is this?
If there’s a better system and the people want to play the better system then let them instead of putting obstacles in their way to make your failure look a bit less bad.
I don’t know why you think the system is inherently shitty? It is keeping 1 map rappers out from the ladder, making games easily accessible and fairly balanced (based on elo).
Ranked people are supposed to play on the ladder, lobby browser is for casual games, that’s all there is to it. Players aren’t forced to play on the MM completely however, if they want to play casual, they can go to lobbies. Easy. Can’t really compare to Berlin wall really. You couldn’t decide which side of the wall you were. Now you can. Just the rules are still different on each side of it but at any time you can jump on either side.
But that’s subjective, it is your opinion to say the old system was better. And for example mine is the opposite. You are even allowed to go play voobly or hd if you like the old system, they are completely intact. No one is forcing you. You are totally oblivious to what a dictatorship even means.
The ladder can be improved on, but that’s the place for the ranked games nonetheless. They are not to be brought to lobbies, cause lobbies are a casual place. So it is an argument. You want to play ranked games outside the ranked area and somehow feel the need to start talking about dictatorship as if it had anything to do with that. However in any game, there is this so called “dictatorship” as you put it, the devs decide the rules. Again, there’s no denying that the player count has kept on rising so far, even under this “dictatorship”.
I don’t know why you think the system is inherently sh*tty?
Why me? That’s you.
Your argumentation that MM has to be protected from the Lobbies by making the Lobbies bad on purpose is based on the idea that MM isn’t good. If MM were inherently good, it wouldn’t have to be protected and we finally could get our balancing tool in the lobbies…
You have already agreed in one of your posts that adding ELO to the lobbies would make the lobbies better for ranked games than MM. This obviously means that MM isn’t very good…
Can’t really compare to Berlin wall really. You couldn’t decide which side of the wall you were.
You misinterpred my argument. You literally said that it is a good thing when the devs keep the lobbies bad in order to keep players in matchmaking. So you obviously don’t think that those two systems should compete for the player’s favor by improving themselfes. You rather think that sabotaging one system is the right way to go… so that the other system has less pressure to improve.
Well, that’s a lot like building a wall to force people into a system that couldn’t compete without such dirty tricks.
But if you prefer some socialist view on the analogy it can also be turned around: The West had to sabotage the East in order to keep it down. Either way, the message stays similar: If you need to play dirty in order to be able to compete, that’s a bad thing. But you consider it a good thing…
But that’s subjective, it is your opinion to say the old system was better. And for example mine is the opposite.
Again: Your argumentation is incoherent. If in your opinion the Matchmaking system is much better anyway, then there is absolutely no reason to fear that fixing the lobbies would affect Matchmaking in a very negative way.
Your whole objection against fixing the lobbies is based on the argument that the old system is better: “I already explained that they wouldn’t want to make lobbies better for ranked games than MM itself”
Personally I don’t care if somebody prefers the old or the new system. I just think that both systems should be allowed to work at their best.
I’d never go and say: “Oh, let’s kill the Matchmaking so that we get more players in the lobbies.” I trust that a good lobby system will attract enough players. But you obviously don’t trust the Matchmaking to be able to compete against lobbies that aren’t c*strated on purpose… otherwise you wouldn’t object.
Again, there’s no denying that the player count has kept on rising so far, even under this “dictatorship
You know what’s funny? HD currently has a higher “average player number” than it had ever before in it’s seven year history. Yes you read right: HD is now bigger then ever… (And this despite the fact that they let it go to sh*t on purpose by not fixing the bugs anymore. And despite the fact that we have DE…)
So what does us tell that? Age of Empires II generally has a huge momentum going on. Probably because the streaming and e-sports community got more and more promionent during the last years. Because a lot of money went into tournaments. Because a leading German online TV station had it’s own weekly AoE2 show…
So it’s quite obvious that the rising player count isn’t a proof for DE being all perfect.
(By the way: HD’s player count even increased by a higher percentage during the last two months than DE’s ;-))
BASED ON THE IDEA THAT RANKED GAMES BELONG TO THE RANKED MATCHMAKING QUEUE.
No it does not mean MM isn’t good, it means MM might not be for everyone but it still doesn’t mean that those who don’t agree with the MM system should be doing their ranked games on the casual lobbies. Capiche?
Keep them bad for ranked games which are supposed to be had on the ladder instead. The lobbies aren’t bad for casual games. Or actually they are, cause there often are problems with file transfers on custom games. That is something to be improved on actually.
Yes I don’t think they should compete, how long did that take you to understand? Lemme spell it out once more: MM, is for ranked games. Why should CASUAL lobbies be competing the MM for ranked games? Lobby browser is not supposed to give you a 2nd option to play ranked games in, it is for casual gaming. MM was made with the intention of having all the ranked games at. Period. There’s no “sabotaging” as you say it, since ranked games aren’t meant to be played at the lobbies on DE.
Why are you going into politics now? Well let me return the favor: capitalism at it’s finest, pitting MM and lobbies against each other for the ELO crown. Do you think this is good design somehow? Then why have MM in the first place, just go with the lobbies. 11
Right now I can’t think of a single game where there exists a Matchmaking system and they would at the same time have their lobby system compete with it for the ranked games?
Yes I don’t trust the players, cause I know there are too many people who love only arabia, or only arena, or only black forest. But that would just defeat the purpose of even having elo in the first place. Cause then it would no longer tell anything about the players average skill across all the maps and
→ regular playstyles (water game for example) of the game.
Yes, except their regular players have even fallen a little after the spike, where as DE regular players ALSO spiked and even higher than DE and they still continue to rise anyway. And HD is a good game which I have nothing against of growing. But the fact that DE has more anyway is still telling imo.
Higher percentage on March, less on April, totally less on actual players on both and the past 30 days DE has still kept on growing but HD has taken a turn. And if we forget percentages all together, check DE last 24 hour peak and compare to HD all time peak which was 2 months back. Also, concurrent players are constantly 50% higher on DE than HD. Some people just can’t even upgrade to DE yet cause they run a potato. I know friends who stayed HD for that particular reason. And there’s nothing wrong with a potato tbh, but the game’s having very different requirements does hinder down on who can and who can’t play it. So HD is more available than DE to begin with. And yet DE playerbase grows much more. Of course it’s even corona right now so mostly for HD those are probably players who’ve had the game for years but dropped playing or kept a hiatus, took almost a 2 year break myself and went for csgo and dota2 with irl friends until over a year ago. I’m doubtful too many of them are actually new buyers of the game. DE is most likely another matter cause the game is quite new.
BASED ON THE IDEA THAT RANKED GAMES BELONG TO THE RANKED MATCHMAKING QUEUE.
Yeah but that’s an idea you can’t give one single reasonable argument for.
Capiche?
I understand that this is your opinion. But I don’t think it’s relevant as long as you can’t coherently justify it.
how long did that take you to understand?
Blathering contradictory stuff in every other post isn’t excatly making it easier to understand your actual point of view
Lemme spell it out once more: MM, is for ranked games. Why should CASUAL lobbies be competing the MM for ranked games?
The answer to your question has already been given a dozen of times in this thread:
The current Matchmaking is a “settings monoculture”. Everybody who doesn’t want to have this heavy limitation can’t play matchmakig. He’s forced to the lobbies.
But the lobbies can only work properly if they have a tool to balance the matches
The idea that lobbies don’t need any balacing tools because they are “casual” is a phantasm for which you can’t give any reasonable argument.
But you use this phantsam to deny the lobby players their much needed tool.
Yes I don’t trust the players
Aaaaah… aren’t we back to the core now?
So in fact your actual argument is: “We need to force the players to play the game my way” because you do fear that they’d abandon Matchmaking if we had proper lobbies?
But the fact that DE has more anyway is still telling imo.
Well, nothing else is to expect. But the thing is, as I already said: The fact that even the old HD is growing right now shows us that the growth of the community most likely hasn’t much to do with DE being such a perfect game but simply with the fact that AoE2 in general has a great momentum.
I mean obviously normally we’d expect to see a drastic decrease in HD players because we’d expect most HD players to switch to DE. Instead we’re seeing an all time high for HD…
There’s one problem with that. I’m 2000 rating on TG but only 1200 on 1v1. With such a rating system, I would have very enjoyable but easy games on TG and impossible to play on 1v1. Same for maps. I can’t win on open maps, but am very good at closed maps.
It seems more like you just don’t deem reasonable arguments as reasonable:
Well, the only reason you have to your own justification is just your opinion. Maybe after all this trouble, your opinion just wont change and then you’ll just have to deal with it. Its not going to change, there is no reason from the devs perspective to start working against their own MM. Also there already was justification and I already quoted the same phrase once on this very reply but I’ll put it here again:
If a person can’t understand that elo should be actually representing skill and for this reason they feel forced to go to lobbies to play their fav map, then the fault is really on them.
And there is, you can see ranked elo. You just need to play the ranked games too. Which is not an absurd thing to ask tbh. (except for you guys of course)
Matchmaking made the ranked games proper. Now elo is something proper that represents a players overall skill as it should. It doesn’t matter how many people disagree with that, its still the proper way for it to work. That is a fact.
And again:
There are many reasons to play HD even now, for example many custom maps don’t work on DE at all. But this has nothing to do with ranked games. Front Towers doesn’t exist at all, CBA went broken (don’t believe its fixed even now), otherwise custom gamemode lobbies failing pretty often and file transfers being permanent on HD made custom map playing much more straightforward. I use HD myself too every now and then for the occasional Front Towers game. Not to mention, the profanity filter also gave it’s fair share of a problem on DE. But again has nothing to do with MM.
And that high was some time ago while DE high was more recently and is still keeping close to the all time high daily, unlike HD. When you look at 3 month graph, HD is going down right now on regulars and DE keeps on going higher. So there was a spike on HD while the profanity filter was working its worst, while DE also had a spike even with the profanity filter being there and it still keeps on growing. And the filter is deemed a problem on a much larger scale than ranked lobbies.
Still it doesn’t mean much but that’s already what the name implies, unranked.
And that is a good thing obviously. You want to keep the ranked games on the MM and casual games at the lobbies.
Its not going to change, there is no reason from the devs perspective to start working against their own MM. Also there already was justification and I already quoted the same phrase once on this very reply but I’ll put it here again: