Stop creating this nonsense competitive vs casual argument. MM and lobby have both of those types of players. There are just different methods of calculating elo, and different pro’s and con’s to each system.
@Hardform Wow you are one intolerant person. You seem to know it all, how everything is “supposed” to be. Learn to be a bit more openminded. You don’t even want everyone to be happy, as long as you are content then that system should be the only way. Well hate to break it to you, but you are not alone on this planet.
Nah, you are not alone on this planet so stop acting that way too. People who think playing only 1 map is healthy for ranked are exactly the people who think they are alone on the planet. The way MM now works is better for a larger crowd whilst also being actually useful in defining elo.
You’re just repeating the same debunked nonsense over and over. You obviously can’t differentiate between some subjective “phantasms” and things that objectively make sense.
Your whole “ideology” is just about denying other players to play the game the way they want to. You’re all about forcing everybody to accept your “only true way of playing”.
What we ask for takes nothing away from your way of playing the game. Nobody here wants to tell you how to play the game. But you can’t just play the game the way you like it… you also need to enforce your rules on everybody. That’s the big difference here.
And that high was some time ago while DE high was more recently
Wrong. The highest average players per month HD ever had was in April 2020. That’s the latest data available since May just started…
If you haven’t or have is besides the point, there are many who do want to do that and it is unhealthy. And the current system is stopping that and allowing ranked play on lobbies would also allow that unhealthy practice to flourish once more.
Mate, you are very disillusioned if you think you have somehow debunked me and are saying that the quote I pasted even 3 times is not an objective one.
You have to realize that not everything is about the way you want to do things. As it clearly isn’t now and wont be in the future concerning this subject, thank god. This is giving me a goodnight’s sleep.
Yeah well the highest peak players was on march. Concurrent was last month yea but last 30 days is falling, so the peak concurrent was also early on april, even the last 24 hours peak is nowhere near the all time peak, unlike DE.
Latest data is always last 30 days. Go and have a look, its never getting twisted by a month having just started.
Mate, you are very disillusioned if you think you have somehow debunked me and are saying that the quote I pasted even 3 times is not an objective one.
Dude, your own quote you copy pasted a dozen times is completely irrelevant to the thing we’re talking about here…
Nobody wants to interfere in any way with your “Matchmaking Ranked 1v1” or “Matchmaking Ranked TG” ELO. Your ELO stays completely untouched and loses nothing of it’s meaningfulness.
The ELO we wish for would be completely detached from “your” ELO. It would be a pure balacing tool for the lobbies. (And the evidence that this works well has been provided by HD for seven years.)
So either you still did not understand what we’re talking about or we end up at the same point as always: You want to deny other people their way of playing the game even if you gain nothing from it. Just because it obviously makes you feel better to force your ideology on other people.
Sorry to say it, but you’re excatly like some backwater yokel who protests against gay rights just because he thinks being gay is “wrong” and nobody should be allowed to be different from him.
For me there is no real reason to add some kind of Elo to the unranked lobby. There is a reason why it is calle unranked.
Lobby is for thinks like playing games with your own friends (you dont need ratings, you just know how good every friend is), tournaments (fixed teams, no unranked elo needed), play together with/against the AI (Games against AI needs to be excluded from every kind of multiplayer ranking). In the end there are some nichi maps/settings who arent played frequently. For example: I dont know how popular games like Land Nomad and CBA are at DE. I dont really think we need a ranking for some niches. The better question will be: How to get those players to the ranked lobby.
Voobly has some lobby for custom scenarios with there own ladder. I wont be against adding such ranking to the ranked system. Next to the options of RM and DM, you will also have the option for CS (custom scenario). We can also add maps like Land Nomad to the possible maps for the map pool.
Unranked ELO will always be skewed / unreiable to me. Therefore i would suggest to focus on improving the ranked ladder. I think such improvements are much better for the game. In the end we just dont really need some kind of unranked ELO.
For me there is no real reason to add some kind of Elo to the unranked lobby.
That’s fine. We dont want to add it for people who don’t play Lobbies anyway. We want it to add for people who actually play the Lobbies.
And why the people who actually play the lobbies need this balancing tool has been explained countless times in this forums.
The better question will be: How to get those players to the ranked lobby.
I guess you mean: “How to bring them to Matchmaking”. The answer would be: By making Matchmaking good. But as I already explained: I doubt that this is going to happen. Matchmaking is all about limiting settings while the qualities of AoE2 (for many players) are all about having a rich variety of settings.
Unranked ELO will always be skewed / unreiable to me.
Doesn’t matter. You don’t have to use it. But why denying it to the people who want to use it?
(Besides this: HD presents seven years of evidence that the kind of ELO we ask for works fairly well.)
If we have to choiche between the following two options:
The game has 1 great tool for balancing teams.
The game has 2 not so great tools for balancing teams.
For sure my vote will go to option 1. I really dont know why you want 2 not so great tool over 1 great tool.
Lets now have a look at DE: At this moment we already have a balancing tool. It is called match making. Now we have two option:
We can improve match making, so it will be a great tool for every one.
We can create a seperate tool for the lobby.
Again i would vote for option 1. It is so much better if you just have one great balancing tool. For me 1 great tool is always better than 2 not so great tools. Also it is less confusing to players, no questions about the different tools / ratings. It also seems better from the devs point of view: Maintaining 1 tool is much more easy than maintaining two tools.
In your answer you assume the devs wont go for option 1. You said: I doubt that this is going to happens. This isnt clear to me. If the devs decided option 1 wont be done, for sure they also say options 2 wont be done.
There are multiple threads about the subject "Unranked Elo’. I have posted one post of my in multiple threads. In this post i explain the drawbacks of unranked Elo and why is it skewed / unreiable based on my experience in HD and Voobly. I dont know if i post the same already in this thread: If not: have a look in the other threads about unranked Elo or ask me to post it also in this thread.
For me: For me unranked Elo is unreiable and thus isnt useful for balancing teams. Having some unreiable value to balancing teams is just bad design to me.
Why have the dev spend time to make a bad designed feature if they also can spend time on improving an already existing feature, given that the improved existing feature will fix the seem issue?
“How to bring them to Matchmaking”. The answer would be: By making Matchmaking good.
This needs to be the priority. Not adding another balancing system.
Even if they genuinely make MM the main place, where you can ‘opt in’ on maps and have controll over random civ. Even in that case there will be maps outside of the map pool that people in the community want to enjoy, those players will form niche groups and will need visible lobby elo to find fair matches amongst eachother. This is how it has always been in voobly or HD. Without it new maps can’t become popular.
If we have to choiche between the following two options:
Yeah but this is no “either this or that”… so your whole argumentation already falls apart in your first sentence.
Introducing a good balancing tool to the lobbies would not impact the Matchmaking at all.
It also would not bind valuable development resources since it would be very easy to fix & introduce it. The only question is: Do the devs want to do it?
In this post i explain the drawbacks of unranked Elo and why is it skewed / unreiable based on my experience in HD and Voobly.
Well… I also have some experience in HD (actually a bit more than 800 matches…) and from that experience I know that the HD-ELO worked fairly well to balance teams. Of course it was not perfect. But it’s much better than having nothing at all.
Besides this: If you don’t like it, don’t use it. But there we are again… why denying it to the people who do want to use it?
(As I already said: Spending dev time isn’t really an argument. It’s an absolute low-level feature that could be introduced with minimal effort. They are already calculating the stats for lobby games… they are even calculating an ELO from it… they just needed to show this ELO in the GUI and fix the way it’s calculated so that it worked like it did in HD. I’d say a trainee could do it in one day ;-))
This needs to be the priority.
Yeah but it won’t happen… I doubt that it even is possible. It’s pointless to tell people to wait for something that is not going to happen.
I think we can conclude we have to agree to disagree.
For me adding the current inaccurate unranked elo to the ingame ratings doesnt really helped the lobby that much. I see you have another opinion. We have both posted our arguments. I start feeling like i have to repeat myself and i got the feeling this happens also for you. So let us just agree that we both have another opinion. In the end the devs decided what will be implemented and what not. We both give us our arguments. It will up to them to decided.
For me adding the current inaccurate unranked elo to the ingame ratings doesnt really helped the lobby that much. I see you have another opinion.
It seems you misunderstand: The current “unranked ELO” in DE (which is calculated absurdly and therefore mostly meaningless) will indeed not help the lobby! That’s why I wrote that the “unranked ELO” has to bee fixed first (= calculating it the way it was in HD, thus only take into account 1v1/2v2/3v3/4v4 with no mods and no custom maps).
After the calculation has been fixed it will become rather accurate and therefore a great addition to the lobbies.
My bad. I was thinking the calculation already was like HD. I also felt the calculation of ranked team games is a bit off. So if they have a look at the ratings, maybe they can have a look at the team game ranked games too.
I was thinking the calculation already was like HD.
Unfortunately not. I’ve seen quite a lot of profiles where the players have a win:lose ratio of 1:2 and still are climbing… if they play enough matches they eventually reach 18xx or higher… and get smashed by 12xx who have a win ratio of 2:1. I’ve seen a 18xx who needed 1hour 25minutes to Imp (not being attacked) while 12xx in the same match made it in 30 minutes.
Currently I feel that the “win percentage” is the more accurate thing in DE unranked than the ELO - but of course it’s also not accurat at all.
All of this would have been unthinkable in HD. If you played 100 games and lose two thirds of them in HD, you’d end up a couple 100 points below your original ELO… in DE some people obviously gain 500 ELO while losing most of their games.
I’m quite tired right now so I’ll probably get back to you tomorrow but will answer you to this right away just to make it clear: I am very much in support of people being gay or bi or straight or whatever they wish to be, as long as what they wish to be does not hurt someone else. (and having a sexual desire to same sex or both sexes is not hurtful in any way)
I ll remind again, that unranked elo display counter could be capped at 1800 or so (no lower tho). So it won’t get compared to ranked and it could help to balance games more.
I think after reading all the opinions and listening to both sides of the argument , i have found a balance that helps everyone.
Show ranked match elo in unranked lobby. No need to have unranked elo. Ranked elo will give an estimate of the person’s skill
Show history of elo in a hover popup on the name. This will prevent smurfs to lose a few games on purpose, drop their elos and then spoils games. Smurfs are real. They do exist. And we are not talking about those blue little things.
Custom scenario should either have their own elo or not have at all.
We need FVD in DE. ( Unrelated, but someone said fvd in the post above. )
And the current system is stopping that and allowing ranked play on lobbies would also allow that unhealthy practice to flourish once more.
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