About the siege capabilities of the Lakota civilisation

I have not played the Definitive Edition of Age of Empires 3 yet but I did play the original Age of Empires 3 on numerous occasions as a teenager and during High school. With the addition of the “Captured Mortar” unit and the recent June update the Lakota has finally been given other options to siege than just relying on the “Charging Ceremony” (originally called the “Fire Dance”) which they DESPERATELY needed, especially access to long-range siege, for many years.

However, I hope this won’t be the only changes that will be made to the Lakota concerning their sieging capabilities, because now they have to send cards and wait till the Industrial Age in order for them to get access to siege units.

Sure their infantry may have damage multipliers against walls now and even if the “Charging Ceremony” may not be as good as it was before it should still have its use. But do these aforementioned default siege capabilities, which doesn’t require any cards, make up for the Lakota civilisations deficient sieging options? No it does not.

If we take a look at every other civilisation in the game, all of them gets access to proper siege units upon reaching the Fortress Age, while the Lakota does not. And a majority of their siege units requires no further conditions than just reaching the respective age at which they can be trained. Why can’t the Lakota do something as fundamental like this?

This roundabout method for sieging as the Lakota does not make it more interesting to play as them but it only makes it tedious, just like it did in the past but it was much more worse then. Because of this the Lakota player can’t raze buildings from a safe distance or do so without suffering a lot of casualties, until getting access to the “Captured Mortar” or by sending the “Territorial Claims” card.

What the Lakota needs are MORE proper siege units that can be trained once reaching the Fortress Age from a building. This should not be exclusively obtained from cards or by waiting till late game.

I did send a list of suggestions to the development team where I suggested that the Lakota could build the “Siege Workshop” building, where they would train their unique siege units from it. One of these military units would have been the “Sapper” which would have function as a hybrid between a “Falconet" and a “Grenadier". The Sapper would have been an Archer that would shoot arrows with dynamite sticks attached to them, but I guess that wouldn’t be historically accurate for the Lakota. Instead of this why not give them the option to train a “Captured Falconet” or “Captured Horse Artillery”?

And finally I think it would be great if the Lakota civilisation could train an alternative Heavy Infantry unit, because the “Club Warrior” becomes less useful later in game due to their fragile nature despite being a Heavy Infantry who are supposed to take more of a beating. The one I had in mind would be a Heavy infantry unit called the “Mauler”. The description for this unit would be: “Heavy Infantry armed with a long handled club. Deals a crushing blow to any enemy within range.

The weapon that they would use can be based on the “Double Pointed War Club” which was a weapon used by the Native Americans from the Plains. The weapon itself looks a lot like a Two-Handed Maul but with a hammerhead that is very reminiscent of an American football in shape. According to an auction site known as the “College hill arsenal” (Plains Indian Double-Headed War Club) these clubs were given longer shafts upon the introduction of the horse. The reason for the longer shaft was necessary to be able to attack a mounted warrior from the ground, as well as attacking a foot soldier when on horseback. In some cases the stone heads for these clubs had crystal inclusions. Rocks such as these were apparently thought to have mystical powers.

The “Mauler” will fulfil the same role as a “Halberdier” where these guys will replace the “Club Warrior” unit as a more versatile and combat efficient unit when reaching the Fortress Age

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The only artillery unit that would make sense for the Lakota would be a Horse Gun. Everything else is too cumbersome and slow to use out on the prairie.

Cetan Bows need a new name, and they should be somewhere between a siege archer and a normal archer unit. Personally, I gave them the name “Miyostake” in my own mod, which is a reference to blunt-headed arrows that were used to disable targets, but not kill.

Club Warriors need a new… everything.

Personally, I think the Tashunke Prowler (which is an inaccurate name) should be renamed and re-statted to be a raiding siege cavalry unit, with a higher than normal siege range (like 10 or so) and high ranged resist. Base them off the Sicangu hunters, who would carry big shields and use fire to hunt with. They used this in their raiding as well.

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Captured Mortars are available in industrial age.

The only artillery unit that would make sense for the Lakota would be a Horse Gun. Everything else is too cumbersome and slow to use out on the prairie.

Cetan Bows need a new name, and they should be somewhere between a siege archer and a normal archer unit. Personally, I gave them the name “Miyostake” in my own mod, which is a reference to blunt-headed arrows that were used to disable targets, but not kill.

Club Warriors need a new… everything.

Personally, I think the Tashunke Prowler (which is an inaccurate name) should be renamed and re-statted to be a raiding siege cavalry unit, with a higher than normal siege range (like 10 or so) and high ranged resist. Base them off the Sicangu hunters, who would carry big shields and use fire to hunt with. They used this in their raiding as well.

Changing the Cetan Bowmen into a hybrid between a siege unit and ranged infantry sounds like a great idea! They would then be similar to the Incan “Huaraca” that will have a longer range when attacking buildings but shorter range when engaging anything else.

Making the Tashunke Prowler into a siege unit is also a good idea. However, their train limit needs to be removed in order to make them into a viable siege unit. Maybe their [Growing in strength by numbers] ability could be gained through the “Marauders” card.

About these double pointed war clubs that I mentioned in my post, what do you think about them? Were weapons like these used by the Lakota?

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Captured Mortars are available in industrial age.

They are only available in the Industrial Age if the player chooses to research the “Gun Running” technology. This would be okay if the Lakota had another siege unit, which didn’t require any other conditions than just reaching Fortress Age to be able to train them, and that they could rely on before researching this technology. The Captured Mortar can’t be trained just by reaching the Industrial Age, which is something the Vanilla (European) civilisations can do.

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Back at Update 5208 they had nerfed Tashunke Prowler for some reason.
The only acceptable thing there was the 50%->25% shadowtech in Imperial Age (because of Treaty). All other nerfs felt random and debatable.

They have just reworked Lakota but completely forgot to revert these nerfs, specially now that Siege dance was nerfed. Actually, even though the devs have reviewed over 6 civs by now, there are still plenty of those cards/units that still need a revamp.

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Can’t they train them in industrial with the new big button tech for 700 gold?

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My bad, I mistook the “Gun Running” technology for being a card.

Can’t they train them in industrial with the new big button tech for 700 gold?

Yes, but they have to wait till the Industrial Age to get a proper siege unit and then they have to pay additional resources to be able to train them. That is the problem. Imagine if you played as the Haudenosaunee and reached the Industrial Age. You wanted to train some Light Cannons, which fulfils an important role for the Haudensaunee as a long-range siege unit, but you discover that you have to pay an initial cost to able to train them.

That is the problem that the Lakota are facing. Because the Lakota completely lack any ranged siege in the Fortress Age, they could therefore be harassed just like the Haudenosaunee by other players if they decide to train Falconets and place them behind walls. And by the time the Lakota reaches the Industrial Age, most civilisations will be ahead of them in the game by having a better balanced army composition.

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Lakota has enough siege, always had. The problem was walls, which is now fixed since all units eventually do bonus damage to walls. And if the enemy is too entranced, then mortars will do the trick. Lakota late game is fine. In fact there’s now a reason to build club warriors. Civs don’t all have to be the same.

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Lakota has enough siege, always had. The problem was walls, which is now fixed since all units eventually do bonus damage to walls. And if the enemy is too entranced, then mortars will do the trick. Lakota late game is fine. In fact there’s now a reason to build club warriors. Civs don’t all have to be the same.

If their siege had always been adequate, since they were added to the game year 2006, as you say then they wouldn’t have needed Mortars right?

But now they have Mortars in the Definitive Edition along with the “Territorial Claims” card that improves both the Cetan Bowmen and Club Warriors siege capabilities.

I simply want to highlight some rather serious shortcomings that the Lakota still has gameplay wise, and you regard this as me wanting to make the Lakota civilisation less unique?

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By your own admission, you haven’t played DE, so you can only assume stuff. The siege problem of lakota was dealing with walls, that’s why they got mortars. Now all their units do bonus damage to walls and they have mortars. Their siege is fine now.

By your own admission, you haven’t played DE, so you can only assume stuff. The siege problem of lakota was dealing with walls, that’s why they got mortars. Now all their units do bonus damage to walls and they have mortars. Their siege is fine now.

Perhaps I do assume things to a certain extent, but I cannot agree with that I am only assuming things by 100%. Even if the Definitive Edition for Age of Empires 3 was released by 2020, most major efforts so far has still gone into adding new civilisations to the game. These significant changes to the older civilisations is more of a recent thing, which started somewhere at the end of last year (2021) where the Aztecs were updated, followed by the Spanish and now the Lakota.

I can see that you are quite the dismissive type just because I mentioned that I haven’t played the Definitive Edition for Age of Empires 3 yet.

The things that I have conveyed in this post has weight to it, because the Lakota are still not a well made civilisation yet but they are close to reaching that state.

This will be my last message to you because I have no interest whatsoever of escalating this into a conflict.

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Well it’s fine, none of the natives had mortars before and at least haud got light cannons. Civs have different strengths and weaknesses, it’d be boring if they were all the same.

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If the enemy is so much well entrenched you should be booming, teching and going for mortars.

I’ve seen them before, but never attributed to the Lakota before. The Lakota’s main weapon from horseback was the lance, as it was used to display feathers earned prominently. Other than that, the coup stick and bows were the only weapons predominately used from horseback. Both gunstock warclubs and ballhead warclubs were too short to be used from horseback, but both were weapons just about every warrior had and used when fighting on foot.

I’ve seen them before, but never attributed to the Lakota before. The Lakota’s main weapon from horseback was the lance, as it was used to display feathers earned prominently. Other than that, the coup stick and bows were the only weapons predominately used from horseback. Both gunstock warclubs and ballhead warclubs were too short to be used from horseback, but both were weapons just about every warrior had and used when fighting on foot.

Maybe they could have access to an infantry unit that uses a spear instead of this two-handed war club, and where they will function like a Halberdier. Spears were pretty common weapons used by the indigenous people of both North and South America.

And the name "Mauler" for this unit could be switched to “Impaler” instead.

From horseback, lances were common. On foot, however, those lances were less used and their ornamentation often made them impractical. At that range, most warriors had a gunstock or ballhead warclub they switched to, if not just a pistol for short-ranged fire or a warbow for the same purpose.

The vast majority of weaponry used by the Lakota was ranged - I love my culture, but I admit that we were not the greatest warriors in melee range on foot. Our weapons were made for hunting, which was done from a distance. These weapons were then used on humans when necessary - the only real weapons designed specifically to fight other humans were warclubs.

The Warclub is an accurate unit, but its stats are iffy at best. Warclubs were never used against cavalry, they were used specifically against humans. Contrary to how they might appear, warclubs were not heavy like a mace - they were fairly lightweight and inflicted damage more like a policeman’s baton, although many had a spike driven into the head. They were specifically designed for combat against humans, so having them as an anti-cavalry unit is just absurd. It’s like designing a longbowman with a bonus against heavy cavalry units.

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The club unit thing countering cavalry is sadly a part of the Rock paper scissors balance that this game employs. Unless you are either Inca or Aztec, if your infantry has a prominent melee weapon, your role is most likely to counter cav, no matter how absurd it is- Clubs? Anti cavalry. Swords? Anti Cavalry. Axes, Melee or thrown? Anti Cavalry. Generally speaking, if you wanted to deal with cavalry in real life, you left it to some sort of polearm, be it a spear, a lance, a pike, halberd, or even a gun that has been turned into a makeshift polearm with a bayonet.

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The age 3 card that buff sieges kinda allows them to fufill this role now since they now have a siege attack that is 16 range and have 1.5 rof which reading this now is kinda nuts

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it also makes clubs just eats buildings alive

the idea of a unit that cant kill is interesting, maybe double their stats but they cant kill, then having the war chief come on and with splash damage and kill everything