What he said is just like a " Nmslese",a kind of Chinese ultra-nationalist.lol.
And although my advices are a little radical,I still want to tell you,the Boxer is a kind of cult,it is completely discrimination.
No of course not, why would I be familiar with chinese sayings out of all things. I still donāt understand how that justifies thinking calling your modern units āSoldier with german gunā is a good idea.
Anyways, if everyoneās done having fun with the dumb things I did 10 years ago, how about a decent proposal for a change?
New Army - Changes all Banner Armies as such:
Green Banner Army: Anti-infantry army of Skirmishers and Muskets.
3 Yongying: Or Brave if you prefer. Regional militias armed with rifles. Good against infantry and light cavalry.
3 Ai-Ding: IIRC this translates as Town Watch but represents Black Flag infantrymen. Armed with smuggled French Rifles and short spears, performing the functions of a Musketeer. Wouldnāt be surprised if there were a better name for Black Flag infantrymen out there.
Red Banner Army: A flexible army of Skirmishers and hand cavalry.
3 Yongying: Or Brave if you prefer. Regional militias armed with rifles. Good against infantry and light cavalry.
2 Jianrui: Fast cavalry good at raiding villagers or buildings.
Blue Banner Army: An anti-cavalry army of pikemen and ranged cavalry.
2 Shenji Cavalry: Cavalry armed with repeating rifles, extremely effective at countering cavalry and artillery.
3 Ai-Ding: IIRC this translates as Town Watch but represents Black Flag infantrymen. Armed with smuggled French Rifles and short spears, performing the functions of a Musketeer.
White Banner Army: An elite offensive army of swordsmen and ranged infantry.
3 Tigermen: Basically Jaguar Prowl Knights sans Stealth. Roughly
3 Huai: or Huang Riflemen if you prefer. One of the best equipped units in China, they are armed with rifles. Good as skirmishers, even better against other skirmishers.
Yellow Banner Army: An army composed of two types of heavy cavalry.
2 Valiant: Cavalry armed with a long spear, hence has a small range on attacks, slight multiplier against infantry.
2 Leopard Tail: The Emperorās Honor Guard, have area attack, are well armored, armed with sabres.
Vanguard Army: An anti-infantry army of rifle infantry and heavy cavalry.
2 Leopard Tail: The Emperorās Honor Guard, have area attack, are well armored, armed with sabres.
3 Huai: or Huang Riflemen if you prefer. One of the best equipped units in China, they are armed with rifles. Good as skirmishers, even better against other skirmishers.
Yangtze River Army: Fast, flexible army of heavy and ranged cavalry.
2 Jianrui: Fast cavalry good at raiding villagers or buildings.
2 Shenji Cavalry: Cavalry armed with repeating rifles, extremely effective at countering cavalry and artillery.
Pearl River Army: Versatile army of swordsmen and heavy cavalry.
4 Tigermen: Basically Jaguar Prowl Knights sans Stealth. Roughly
2 Valiant: Cavalry armed with a long spear, hence has a small range on attacks, slight multiplier against infantry.
Now the card that modernizes artillery should be something like āDai Ziā inventions or something along those lines, the [machine ########################################################## is most likely apocryphal, but we know that the Great General Gun existed as well as the smaller mortars.
Dai Zi Inventions: Replaces all currently trained and availability of Flamethrowers for Three Eye Guns (Unit similar to the Abus, but that shoots 3 times rather than once), Hand Mortars for
General Mortar (Stronger, more specialized towards buildings version of the Hand Mortar) and Flying Crows for HongyiPao (Whose stats are closer to the Heavy Cannon.)
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Oh yeah ignore the names of the banner armies, I left them as placeholder and forgot to change them, they are probably unrelated to the units they actually train lol.
Confirmed:
Ashigaru is a Portuguese unit.
Light cannon is an European unit.
BTW, āHongyipaoā literally means āRed barbarian (aka European) cannonā. So you should be against it as well.
This is not modernized firearm. This is even more backwards than arquebus. If you read that wiki page:
Historians have attributed their design to be refined from primitive fire lances- which consisted of bundles of single joint of bamboos tied around a spear.
Though they the three eyed guns and all of its variants were developed roughly in tandem with contemporary European hand guns, even after superior European guns were introduced to China via Portuguese merchants in the 16th century the Ming still fielded them in the tens of thousands to work in conjunction with whole new divisions fully equipped with western muskets.
As the Ming dynasty neared its collapse, the production and deployment of these multi-barreled guns actually rose drastically against the rising Manchu threat.
Thereās a world of difference between an unit called Ashigaru (and Iām pretty sure the Japanese made their own Arquebuses anyways) and an unit called, and I quote
New Army Mauser Gunman
The Three Eyed Gunner is meant to replace the Flamethrower, which is indeed older than most things in the actual game, being probably a Song Dynasty weapon.
At this point this is descending on Ad Hominem.
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The Hongyipao were made in China, they just called them like that because they were imitating european casting style, is that so difficult to discern from the wiki page?
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Of course I know it. But it is literally NAMED as āEuropean cannonā. And you are triggered by names that sound European. It gives the impression that Chinese could not produce their own cannons.
BTW, unlike Hongyipao, most of the āmodern firearmsā that were used in China and Japan in 1850s were imported. That is fact. They really could not produce ātheir own firearmsā at that time. Just like how Native Americans mostly acquired modern firearms instead of producing them.
There were very few home-made ones. Those come as late as 1880s almost out of the scope of the game.
Maybe you think that as a humiliation but we Chinese never thought so.
Donāt you literally call it the century of humilliation?
Anyways, I explicitly stated that the artillery units should be reformed in a separate card from the Banner Armies. Because you are correct, most artillery lagged behind in the 19th century. So I assumed having earlier Qing Era Dynasty weapons would be better than the incredibly archaic Song Dynasty units the civ has. But if the case is just, you know, that you want 19th century guns just enable European artillery rather than randomly add better versions of European artillery to your roster for no reason.
Like, Iām trying to help here, because calling your better units āsoldier but armed with german gunā looks absurd to me. But if you just wanna have your Mauser Guns and your Krupp cannons, whatever, I give up, have fun I guess.
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But nobody will be angry if some European modern firearms appear in television and games about that era.
I think they are bad names either but because they are too specific and too late, not because they sound European.
You have no problem British producing Congreve Rockets? Even though it is also out of timeline and not their own weapon?
There are also revolution and cards and techs with Western civs that allow them to produce weapons from East.
You just have problem with Eastern using Western weapon not the opposite West using Eastern weapon?
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I think he is an ultra-nationalist
@king199100 Here you are. At your invitation, I conpile the private discussion between us into a post. Although almost all are thoughts Iāve already posted on other topics.
You want something new that accurately reflects to the military power of the late Qing Dynasty and Meiji Japan, but this presentation method is not suitable for the current civilizations, not mention the balance concerns. They are focus on the 16th centuries Japan and 17th-18th centuries China. Even if there are things from the 19th century, they should not occupy so much.
Iād like to try to introduce New Army Regular and New Army Rifleman to cover the modern troops of East Asian countries.
New Army Regular
- Muskteer-type unit, 1 pop.
- Has an ability like Carolean Charge which fight in melee with swords. The Japanese New Army Regulars would use katana in visual, and the Chinese ones would use dadao (Chinese broadsword) in visual.
New Army Rifleman
- Skirmisher-type unit, 1 pop.
Let the effect of the Meiji Restoration simply be changed to something like a revolution. As the most successful country in modernization in Asia, itās appropriate that they have this as a new feature of their civilization.
- Cost 2000 or 2400 export instead.
- End Isolation immediately and the Isolation no longer be available.
- In Barracks and Dojos, disable Ashigaru, Yumi and Samurai, and enable New Army Regular and New Army Rifleman.
- Turn each existing Ashigaru, Yumi, and Samurai into 1 New Army Regular, 1 New Army Rifleman, and 2 New Army Regular respectively.
- In Stables and Dojos, disable Naginata and Yabusame, and enable Hussars and Dragoons.
- Turn the existing Naginata and Yabusame into Hussars and Dragoons.
- In Castles, disable Flaming Arrows and Morutaru, and enable Light Cannon (with Japanese crew) and Mortar.
- Turn the existing Flaming Arrows and Morutaru into Light Cannons and Mortars (with a health limit of only 80%).
(The 80% restriction allows the Mortars to be as close to their original stats as possible without a sudden and explosive enhancement due to transformation). - The Daimyos are fully repalced with New Army Generals, but itās mainly just a change in skin and name, and their trainable units become those units after these changes.
- Remove Shogun Tokugawa, or turn it into just another New Army General.
As for the Chinese, changing the Ever Victorious Army to ship 15 New Army Regulars and 15 New Army Riflemen instead can make it a symbol of the modernized force of the late Qing. Also, renaming the Chinese Imperial Navy to Beiyang Fleet and changing it to ship something Western like 2 Frigates or 1 Ironclad + 1 Steamer. Thatās all.
The Qingās modernization was not a success, so I donāt think they were suited to focus as much on it as the Japanese.
For more, although likely unnecessary, Iād like to redesign Japanese Isolation and introduce Chinese Isolation to replace German ally.
Changes for the Japanese Isolation and the related things other than the Meiji Restoration:
-
Shinobi: No changes.
-
Monogashira: Ashigaru captain. New heavy infantry replacing Konsha Yamabushi at Consulate in Age II. The (Konsha) Yamabushi should be religious warriors so no longer avalible at Consulate and Shogun.
-
Ninjutsu-Zukai no longer avalible at Consulate.
Ninjutsu-Zukai literally means āone who uses ninjutsu (ninja skills)ā. Having it is like having a musketeer named āone who uses musketā. It can be removed together with Tokugawa Shogun, something that is neither balanced nor consistent with the world view. We can have a card or other ways to enable Ninja in mercenary buildings. -
Akazonae: New heavy cavalry, trainable in groups of 3 at Consulate in Age IV. Gains additional HP when grouped together.
-
Hatamoto: no longer related to Ronin, so would no longer be a mercenary and have a bit weaker stats but still powerful. Get a new skin or keep the current skin if Ronin get a new skin. Itās weird to think that Hatamoto and Ronin are the same thing, particularly in visual. Their identities are significantly different. I personally donāt like mercenaries as consulate units either, which is too different from European alliesā units. We can have a card or other ways to enable Ronin in mercenary buildings.
-
Renames Wokou Ronin to Kabukimono (āå¾å„č ā) and gives it a new, more flashy, glorious skin. The current skin can be given as Roninās new skin. Let Wokou be its own unit renamed from the Wokou Pirate instead of the title of all Asian outlaws.
About the Chinese Isolation that replaces the German ally:
-
The passive bonus and the trickles of food, wood, and coins are still there.
-
Three-Eyed Gunner
A new ranged heavy infantry with a three-eyed gun, firing in bursts of three shots like Chu Ko Nu. Has shorter range than Musketeer and better HP than Arquebusier. Trainable in groups of 5 at Consulate from Age II. -
Langxian Spearman
A new hand heavy infantry with a langxian spear. Strong and quite good attack multipliers against cavalry and heavy infantry, but a bit slow. Trainable in groups of 3 at Consulate from Age II. -
Glaive Cavalry
A new heavy cavalry with a classic Chinese glaive polearm like guandao. Very tanky with decent melee attack, but slow. Trainable at Consulate from Age III. -
Manchu
No longer a mercenary. A bit weaker than the original one but still powerful. Trainable at Consulate from Age III.
Introduce Mongol to replace the current Manchu, please. -
Jingal
A new ranged infantry with a jingal, type of large matchlock gun carried by two soldiers, having a higher attack and longer range than Arquebusier, pretty good against heavy infantry and buildings. Trainable at Consulate from Age III. (The place of button is same as Meiji Restoration)
Redesign the special banner army cards. Some of them will ship consulate units.
-
Mandarin Duck Squad (II): 4 Langxian Spearmen + 8 Qiang Pikemen
-
[New] Divine Machine Battalion (II): 8 Three-Eyed Gunners + 2 Flamethrowers
-
[New] Green Standard Army (III): 10 Chu Ko Nu + 6 Jingals
-
Iron Cap Princesā Army (III): 5 Iron Flails + 3 Manchus
-
[New] Feudatoriesā Army (III): 4 Glaive Cavalry + 1 Flying Crow
(Representing the army of the Three Feudatories.) -
[New] Chahar Army (IV): 15 Steppe Riders + 15 Keshiks
(Clearly replacing the current Beiyang Army.) -
Emperorās Army (IV): 22 Arquebusiers + 8 Hand Mortars
-
[New] Yong Ying (IV): 8 Meteor Hammers + 14 Changdao Swordsmen
(Representing the Chu Army, Xiang Army, Huai Army, etc.) -
Ever Victorious Army (IV): 15 New Army Regulars + 15 New Army Rifleman
The special banner armies can be selected for spawning at the Summer Palace (or any replacement to remove the wonder features, such as Barbican or Frontier Garrison, etc.) after being shipped. Their units are more and powerful so it will be more time consuming.
Regarding concepts about Asian warship units, outlaws units, and Indian units, I still think my previous topics are of great reference value. Although in that post I advocated the removal of Wokou Ronin and later I was convinced to reserve it by changing it to Kabukimono.
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Thank you,friend.Thatās really great ideas.
Thatās not even part of the discussion, this topic is about the Asians.
I think you did not read what is my last sentence.
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japan produced their own guns very quickly after it arrived, like literally the first thing they did was try to copy the design.
japan also invented their own tactics around the use of guns separately from the Europeans.
the gewehr isnāt even within the time period of the game, and was imported from Germany.
also you can show china without an imported gun like this, kinda hard showing sengoku japan without ashigaru gunners of some kind.
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the congreve rocket was used in the napoleonic wars, notably in naval battles and the siege of Copenhagen. how is it outside of the games timeline? assuming the game goes from 1492-1876?
it also while inspired from India is a British design and produced and invented in Britain.
which?
again which. the discussion here isnāt whether china, India or japan can have āwestern weaponsā cause they all already have. the discussion is whether it makes sense to add a high tech weapon imported outside of the games time period. and if the faction actually needs this.
it would be one thing if the weapon really changed Chinese warfare and ability, but spoiler alert it didnāt. china was disintegrating as a state when this weapon was adopted.
how is hoop an ultra nationalist, do you even understand what that word means? heās Chilean dude.
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Congreve Rockets are completely within timeline though?
Like early 19th century and you unlock them in the Industrial Era. They are also an European Adaptation of Indian techā¦ like how the Hongyi Pao is a chinese adaptation of European tech.
If youāre gonna strawman me at least do it consistently.
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But what he said is just like a Chinese ultra nationalist,he even cannot bear a Chinese unit armed with German weapon.