Well higher level play mostly end from age2 to early age4, games rarely go beyond to the point Chinaco shows how broken can be.
Do you remember pre DE old French Gendarmes? not much action in 1v1 but in TGs or treaty the unit started to be completely overpowered with Cards and Upgrades as the longer the game goes, to the point just spamming the unit was enough to win, was simply BS.
So yeah Chinacos might not be OP earlier but in longer games with cards and upgrades the unit is clearly broken, and is even cheaper than Cuirassiers for a comparison. Units that end up countering almost everything is bad.
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Yeah. Big proof happening in here, don’t you see?
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Sorry my mistake. I was under the impression there were cards and techs that could be used to upgrade units throughout the game.
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…
PLAIN HUSSAR VS PLAIN CHINACO
FULL AGE 3 CHINACO VS REGULAR MUSK MELEE
DRAGOON VS CHARRO
So can other civs send cards to train ultra strong heavy infantry or very strong cav [so much stronger cav than a full charro]
I think a fair comparison is between plain units, every map or civ can give specific boosts and late game become situational.
not one of those videos is relevant to what is being discussed (again, for the like 10th time you’ve posted them) but thanks for trying.
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I’m starting to wonder if you’re arguing in good faith. No one serious is complaining about Chinacos in the early-mid game. It’s all about the late game and most of what you do is deflect with what are essentially red herrings about the early game (which I think you know that no one is talking about).
When I respond to your criticism of a fairly well-thought out list of treaty nerfs that would have limited impact on 1v1 here, you don’t respond.
Fully upgraded Chinacos are the strongest 2pop mass-producible heavy cavalry in the game. And that would be fine if they didn’t have a solidly top-three skirm, and a full (or over full) European eco on 85 pop. That’s not even mentioning an extra ~35-40 pop worth of natives (still talking about late game here).
Chinacos do the job of Hussars far better late game. They’re a little less tanky, but that’s fine (for them) because they’re doing close to double the damage vs infantry (which is the main unit type in Treaty because they are actually pop efficient). Vs most civs in Treaty, a unit that forces your opponent to build Dragoons is a massive win even before the engagement.
Other civs do, in fact, get great units late game. Some might even get three top-of-the-line units, but that’s usually paired with a roughly average eco that uses 99 pop and no unlimitedly retrainable 0 pop natives (and Conqs are one of the best in the game).
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“Like ladybug to a flower”, anyway I was not talking to you…
And those are plain units wich are representative, imperial units are just the same but with an increased percentage of attack and HP each upgrade.
HC shipments and Native improvements are situational on every map and civ.
you’re on a public forum, you are addressing everyone with your continued ignorance and fallacies. Let me know when you feel like having an adult conversation instead of throwing ad hominems around and pretending the rest of us don’t know how the game works
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At what point was a personal attack thrown? as if you mattered enough.
I never pretend that, at least I present evidence. One of all please upload a video or a game record where the “OP” of your accusations is shown, I bet you won’t because it would expose what is really being done wrong.
show us a video of age 5 fully carded chinacos losing to musketeers, we’ll wait.
After you show me your video/evidence…
And again that is situational, depending on the Civ and Map. Every civ can excel on updating certain unit, for example British, Otto have one of the strongest musk units in post imperial. French, Italy, Sweden have one of strongest cav, etc, etc
Native improvements vary by map (excluding the ones obtained via the Federal cards Mexico has, but those specifically help others units so I’ll ignore those for the moment).
HC shipments aren’t “situational” in treaty mode. You can always have the option for Fully Upgraded Chinacos (and realistically Salts and natives) in a single deck.
Chinacos don’t straight up beat FU Musketeers, what they do is cut what should be a massive win for the Musketeers to a modest one.
“But Chinacos are lancer cavalry! They’re supposed to trade better into Musketeers!” You say.
Lancers are supposed to lose harder to Hussars, and Chinacos don’t if you conduct an actual test with full upgrades (FU, or “Full Upgraded” meaning all techs and cards available that buff attack, and or hp within the homecity, or buildings available to you on any map) and an upgraded flag aura. In fact, at that level, Chinacos will have a significant advantage (and “significant” here, could mean a margin as small as say, 10-20% of total hp left after an even pop fight.). It’s also worth noting that Dragoons are less-used by most civs in treaty as they’re quite pop inefficient. If you say “just make dragoons”, half the civs won’t be able to trade efficiently into a mixed army comp (especially when Mexico might have like 50% more units already).
A unit that kills Skirms faster, takes a much-less-bad trade vs Musketeers, and soft counters other heavy cavalry is concerning in its own right. But as I’ve said numerous times now, that’s not the only overtuned thing Mexico has in the late game. Their skirms, their pop efficient eco, their guaranteed 35-40 pop equivalent of natives, all work together to make a civ that’s unmatched in treaty.
On their own, Chinacos would probably be fine, but when you look at all of it together, it’s stronger than any other civ in treaty.
Now, please, look through the below and explain to me how all the below changes, taken together, would unreasonable hurt the civ in a 1v1.
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I still dont understand, why you want forcibly and obligatorily to counter a unit that slightly counters heavy cav and counters infantry, WITH HEAVY CAVALRY AND INFANTRY?!!!
Where doe it says its the only option to do so? Who made the rule?
Because as far as I know Chinaco does not get into that rule beign a weak mix of lancer + hussar [both are countered by dragoons and heavy pikes btw]
so u can clearly see fully carded chinacos are op. Nobody is talking about plain chinacos except you
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The fact is that in the treaty mode, the dragoons of most countries have a very low cost-effectiveness. The attributes of the dragoons of many countries in the later stage are equivalent to the attack power of a musketeer, the health of one and a half musketeers, and the price of two musketeers. In the treaty mode, almost only African javelin cavalry, Lakota cavalry, and Chinese Kheshig cavalry are qualified arms. Based on this, using dragoons as the main force will only lead to worse losses than using standard musketeers as troops.
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Ever played China before? Guess what comes with each batch of Keshiks.
It’s also a pretty well established rule of thumb that every unit in the game has at least two counters… except Chinacos.
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Mexicans have always been broken in team games. They can have cannons faster than any civilization with the Central American revolution. I could be wrong, but I think they can have cannons by minute 6 or 7. I don’t remember exactly, but it was pretty fast in a game.
The Chinaco is like the Cuirassier before the definitive edition. Personally I would make one of their cards increase training time and/or population.
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Fully upgraded Lancers get like 44 damage with a 4x vs infantry, but have like 33% less base attack than a Hussar.
Chinacos get damage similar to a Hussar with a 1.25x vs Hussars. The whole point of what I was saying is that a unit doing ~100% more damage vs Musketeers, and ~250% more damage vs light infantry shouldn’t preform so well vs Hussars. The “trade off” for that massive DPS advantage vs infantry is costing less than 5% more and having slightly fewer hitpoints.
The Chinaco essentially has no trade off since most civs can’t pop efficiently use Dragoons in Treaty unless their opponent is spamming pure heavy cavalry.
There is a world in which the unit could have its current stats and be balanced, but that would require a sub-par eco and/or sub-par units to support them.
The Chinaco’s current stats are horrendous balanced when you pair them with a skirm that does 46 ranged damage from 22 range, on a civ with a equivalent total army pop that’s bigger than the Dutch and an eco at least as good as a standard Euro civ isn’t fair.
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Oh how far we’ve strayed from the foundation of this game.
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