All civilizations need ranged anti-mercenaries

Since DE came out, I’ve noticed that a lot of new mercenaries have been added to the game, which is great, but it’s also a problem. The only units currently that have multipliers vs mercenaries by default are Spies, Ninjas and Maigadi, per shipment, Native Scouts also have the multiplier. But, it has always been very questionable that such weak units are capable of facing mercenaries, which are very powerful units.

My proposal is the following, we must create a new tag. for these units, which can have any name, such as “Agents” or something like that. Mercenary units should have a low multiplier against these types of units, and at the same time, units with this tag should have high multipliers against them. Creating the following system.

This system today is not applied correctly, because the mercenaries have had a “Powercreep” type evolution, new very strong mercenaries have emerged and the spies and their equivalents have been left behind. This means that unless the spies are in good numbers, and using stealth so they can get enough of the mercenaries, they are not efficient. and yet in this scenario the spies do not trade correctly with the mercenary units.

I consider that apart from creating a new tag for the anti-mercenary units, you also have to apply some kind of buff to them. For example, Spies can gain a skill on cooldown, in which they can deal damage to mercenaries from a distance. (but not Heroes), as shown in the following video.

Finally, add by “default” to all civilizations, at least one anti-mercenary unit with at least one ranged attack skill. This unit may or may not have damage against Heroes and may or may not use stealth, but it is important that it is available, nowadays I am seeing that many players abuse Mercenaries, and it is impossible for many civilizations to deal with them correctly.

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The Agents and Assassins card should for sure give spies a charged pistol attack similar to the card for Hospitallers.

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Spies could work like the ghost from SC-2 where the ability recharges over time with energy, but in this case I would propose that each spy shot (and the like) cost some coins to balance. Something like a “reward” for each casualty.

Daimyo and Mansabdar should be vulnerable to this type of units (spies, ninjas, etc).

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I reiterate, it is really very important that a spy type unit is available for all civilizations, currently the native americans and ethiopians do not have anti-mercenary units by default. And that the anti-mercenary ranged attack is also available by default.

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so i like the idea of a new tag that mercs would have negative multi to, with regards to the class of units, I think you don’t necessarily need a range option for every civ, especially for the two odd case of india and china where they only get spies as a one off.

For those 2 i think an option is to turn the units trainable from the monk -

for china the disciple into the counter unit ( optional as well to have their convert abitilty has higher chance to proc to get more disciples)

India has the trainable tiger after a tech, which could be made default.

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Ethiopians can reliably get spies with the Jesuit alliance. I also suggested a Shifta unit that could be an anti-hero, anti-mercenary outlaw unit for them.

Do you have any ideas of what a Native anti-mercenary unit should be?

The idea of a recharge ranged attack for anti-merc units is one that is brought up often. I’ve suggested it several times on other threads, and I was hardly the first one. I don’t know why the devs resist the idea so much. This is especially glaring as new civs are making Age 2 mercs far more common, precisely at the age when most civs have the least counters to them.

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American Natives get the best spies with Advanced Scouts card.

That’s a great idea!!
I’ve thought some things exactly like that: Mercs and native warriors should have multiplier penalty vs “spies” and the latter should have a better siege resistance.

The cause of it was because some issues were not thought completely, but fortunately D.E. has been tackling these issues one by one (addressing it globally would’ve been the best, but it is what it is).
For instance: Agents and Assassins are really questionable as cards. Should’ve been technologies because there is no way in hell to guess the need of them before the match.

There’s actually a need to review the role of outlaws and some Merc cards in the game. The coin trickle for Tavern was a good step.

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Yes, I believe that no unit that counters another should rely on cards. The cards should only improve them. Basic spies are barely acceptable at this point, as even though cards improve them, they are still very impractical.

If it depends on cards it means that if you don’t have the right card, you won’t be able to get the right unit and I think it would be unbalanced.

i first would add a hotkey to find spy, then ask something else about spies

  1. having a hotkey to find spies would make easier to use them to spy
  2. microig them easier while fighting
  3. making their expensive cost useful
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I suggested a granting some of the effects of more questionable cards as part of an update to politicians. The Tycoon could upgrade Spies to agents in addition to his current effect. It could be a good reference to the Pinkerton agents hired to be strike breakers.

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Yes, but it is by shipment, I would like them to exist by default for all civilizations, remember that there are mercenaries by default on all maps with a lot of variety.

If we could have anti-mercenary units available from scratch and with a bit of variety, that would be great.

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I think that apart from the problem of the new mercenary units, you should think about adding a multiplier against natives, being more common the use in European maps, and that every time they take out more op natives.

I think it’s good that they give them more importance, but this indirectly buffers civ. that don’t need to be buffed.

Outlaws might have an anti-native tag. Improvements to New World Outlaws - #4 by M00Z1LLA

As natives are generally under used what about giving a 1.5 multiplier against mercs, or a 0.5 multiplier for mercs vs natives.

Lore reasons it could work cause the native minor civ knows the area competed to the mercs being imports an so less effective at fighting in the area.

This closes the mercs > standard > native hierarchy. Makes it a loop like skirm, pike, hussar.

Wild idea here - but what if a Pinkerton shipment or upgrade gave an anti-merc bonus to outlaw units? That could make outlaws a hard/soft counter to mercenaries.

Por que no simplemente hacen que los espias tengan ataque a distancia de 12 o 14 de rango con 12 de ataque y asunto resuelto?

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The Pinkertons were like a private police force, so almost the opposite of outlaws. It only really makes sense as a spy upgrade.

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They’re definitely intertwined, at least according to the westerns I’ve watched, lol.