Another North American Civ Iroquois and Algonquian

After almost a year of on and off research I was final able to look into the possibilities and likelihood for North American civilizations in Age of Empires II.

I already make a civ concept about the Mississippians but it is no fun to be a civ in isolation (looking at you Incas!)

So I looked into the possibilities of adding the Iroquois and the Algonquian.

While my Iroquois design get mostly it inspiration from the Haudenosaunee, I chose to use the name Iroquois instead because the culture group and language is larger than the Haudenosaunee confederacy. For example the Cherokee are also part of the Iroquois language and De Soto traveled through their territory.

Again I am saying to add the Iroquois and the Algonquian in the Age of Empires II frame is slightly awkward but I think I have found some arguments that it might work.

Personal I am not that interested in the nitty gritty of the tech tree or units stats, so I did not made one. If you read the bonuses you can image what you think would be balance.

The videos of the experimental archaeology from MalcolmPL helped a lot to understand the practical stuff about things like his videos about recreating Iroquois armor
Or how modern axe would deal with wooden armour.

I would recommend everybody who has a spare moment to watch a handful of videos from MalcolmPL, he got interesting insights about Native Americans.

He make me convinced that the native have a place ingame (and were definitely not as “primitive” as some people claimed.)

Especially if you take disease and gunpowder out of the picture.
Disease don’t play a role in Age of Empires and gunpowder is only a late stage option.
One on one I think, against a medieval Eurasia soldier they are not helpless.
In a game were you can play with Koreans against the Celts in Arabia, I would not mind to see a tomahawk warrior fighting an elephant.

Also I recommend to everybody watch this video:

It is about the Haudenosaunee internal politics, I did not find a lot of opportunities to reflect it in game but it help to understand the Haudenosaunee view of themselves and the world around them.

With that out of the way, let have a look how they could look in game:

First of all, Skraelings Celts out of the Vinlandsaga will change to the Algonquian.

Woodland architecture

The artist Zartusht once made concept art for the Iroquois architecture, the Wonder is based on a drawing from Champlain from one of the towns. That is fine in my opinion.

The Algonquian will use the same architecture, that I would call Woodland architecture.

For the Algonquian Wonder I recommend something like the “Healing Chamber”

I almost scraped my Algonquian civ design because I could not find a fitting Wonder until I stumble upon the lectures of NEARA videos and learned about dolmens, cairns, petroform, stone sweat loges and solar alignment.
In this lecture I learned about the Healing Chamber.

It is maybe not as impressive as a cathedral but still more effort than the ruins that the Huns left behind as a Wonder.

If the Wonder became a collage of dolmens, cairns and petroform with the Healing Chamber as center piece would be quite awesome. Especially if the construction animation show that the rock was deliberately split (I don’t know if that deliberately happened).

Problem with the Healing Chamber Wonder is that the location is not publicly made know to avoid unwanted attention. Putting in a popular videogame might give it unwanted attention….
Here is another lecture about solar alignments. The “Sunset Boulevard” could be an alternative center piece for the Wonder.

Last note on architecture, I would prefer to have unique Mississippian and Woodland set. But if the devs want to save money they could make one set where the Feudal Age set is more Woodland and the Castle age is more Mississippian. I will not like it but understand that they might do it.

Things I would encourage to be shared between the three civ are the walls and sails of the ships.

New Units:

Shared between the Iroquois and the Algonquian is the scout unit. Unlike the other American civs they will not have access to the Eagle Warrior.
We have already civ with the scout unit from the Stable and the Barrack, but not yet from the Archery Range.

Let me introduce you to the Prowler!

Prowler Scout > Prowler Archer > Elite Prowler Archer

It is a weaker version of the Maya Plumed Archer, in the Castle Age it will have a similar role like a Cavalry Archer.

I imagine that the Scout Prowler does not yet have a bow but throw javelins and has a minimal range. The main reason for this is to make defending against very early aggression less annoying but also there is some historic present for it.

A shared unit shared between every North American civ (Also my Mississippians design), is at the Siege Workshop.

The Mantlet, a ranged anti-Archer and anti-Siege, Siege unit.

Imagine Throwing Axeman and Huskarl combined. It throws tomahawks with a range of 3 and has high pierce armour. It has bonus damage against Archers and a small bonus against Siege and Buildings.

Like the Siege Elephant that benefits from Calvary upgrades, the Mantlet benefits from the infantry upgrades and with Siege Engineers it get an extra range.

Same as the Ram and Hussite Wagon, the Mantlet has the ability to protect units behind them by halving the damage dealt by enemy projectiles passing through the Mantlet.

It could replace the Ram line or the Scorpion line, however I think it is best to place it at the same spot where the Bombard Cannon is in the Siege Workshop. That means that it will not have an Elite/Heavy version.

More a Meme/ Easter Egg unit

Like the Meso civ can make the Knight like Xolotl Warrior, if they can get their hands on a Stable. The North American civs can make a Light Calvary like unit called Kanya Horseman. If they can manage to gain a Stable.

Even if it is a “hidden” unit that you will not see often in regular play, there are two potential moment to see them in the campaigns. In the last De Soto campaign scenario when they need to play as the Mississippians instead of Spain, they will have the Stable unlocked and able to make the native horseman.
The other option is in the last Algonquian scenario against the Vikings, there could be a secondary objective to steal Vikings horses.

Trade Carts
As I had mentioned in my Mississippian design: Personal I think the Mesoamerican Trade Carts can be used again but if you want something unique, you can have the historical accurate dog drawn Travois instead.
The dogs could pull about it own weight on the Travois.

New animals
With a new continent we need also add a few new animals.
We already got Deer, Turkeys, Goose, Bear and Wolves ingame.
Fun fact! The in-game Deer is already an American deer! The model is base of the Virginia deer

The new animal are of course the Bison. Other animals that could be added are the Mountain lion, Catfish and Swan. Moose, elk caribou are also good possibilities.

Seals like a fishtype in the water or a deertype on the land could also work. If the seal as a deer would be introduced, a walrus like a boar would also be an opportunity, even if the walrus live too far north to be relevant most of the time.

Scenario only objects like Huron and Thule unit or an igloo house would be cool to have.

I was playing with the idea to have fruit and nut trees. A tree with 75 wood and 25 food. Forage Villagers first collect the food. If all food is collected then Lumberjacks can cut the trees. Double clicking the Fruit Tree will cut the tree straight away without collecting the food.
Fruit and nut trees played an important part in the horticultural lifestyle of Native Americans.

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Iroquois
Infantry and Monk civ

  • Monks gain 5 gold after every successful conversion, inspired by the Morning Wars

  • Relic gives +5 HP for infantry (Max 4 relics).

  • Arson and Squires are free

  • Trees last 20% longer

  • Hunt and Herdables drop off +10% extra food (similar as Malians gold bonus)

  • Houses can become Longhouses

Longhouse ability, like walls merge when they are build beside each other. An Iroquois house will merge and become a longhouse if you build them beside each other. A 2 by 4 longhouse will have the population of 15, a longhouse of 2 by 6 will have the population of 25, only for the wood price of three houses.

Longhouse-3mb
Here I have a quick Photoshop example of a Dark Age Iroquois Longhouse ability.

It work for up to three houses. The longhouses can only be build horizontal — or vertical | an L shape or diagonal \ will not work for the Longhouse ability.

Unique Unit:

Tomahawk Warrior

Infantry with charge attack that damage 1/1 armour.
(Think of an Obuch but when fully upgraded with a speed similar of a Woad Raider)

Alternative Alternative, based on the Morning Wars, Tomahawk Warrior has a very low chance to convert the unit that they are fighting. They have faith like monks but generate it very slow (let say a random number, 3 minutes). When Tomahawk Warrior are created they start with 0% faith. Illumination help to faith regeneration faster. Atonement is needed for capture monks. Redemption for Siege units, they can not capture building.

Because they need to fight in order to make the conversion, that means that the target is always damaged at the conversion.

The chance of conversion should be very low, it should not be a guarantee that your whole army will be converted when you encounter a group of Tomahawk Warrior. Researching Devotion and Faith help for extra protection while Heresy cancel the whole possibly out.

Castle Unique Technology:
Lacrosse
Skirmisher (and Mantlet?) damage pierce armour

Imperial Unique Technology
Orenda,
Infantry and monk walk 10% faster. Infantry attack 10% faster

Team bonus:
Monastery technologies are 5% cheaper.

AI names
Like I said with my Mississippian design, there are several ways to get enough AI names.
For the Iroquois is it even easier than the other two, we can use the names of The Great Law of Peace story.

-Deganawidah
-Hiawathaa
-Jigonhsasee
-Tadodaho
-Skennenrahawi

We can take a page from the original developers and use alternative spelling.
Because the The Great Law of Peace was first an oral history, told by different languages and dialects, there is no consensus how the names are written.
Of course we can also use names from early European contact like Donnacona.

Also we can use the names of the Nations and Clans
Finally we can use names from mythology like Sosondowah and Gendenwitha


Spread of the Iroquoian languages precontact

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Algonquian
Archer and Naval civ

  • Fervor and Sanctity affect Archer Range, Siege Workshop and Dock military units.

  • Can get 100 food from predator animals
    (The teeth and claws of bears are highly sought after jewellery.)

  • Fish drop off +10% extra food (Villager and boat)

  • Shipwright is available in Castle Age.

  • Military Dock units are 50% cheaper

    Explanation Trash Boats, they get all Dock upgrades (Careening, Dry Dock, Shipwright) but their ships are stuck in the Feudal Age. To compensate their boats are very cheap, especially after Shipwright

The Algonquian lived often to far north for maize farming or lived close to abundance of marine food sources. They often did not need rely on domesticated plants. What they did do is horticultural, that is giving wild plants the room to thrive, like removing other trees so that the wild fruit trees have every room to grow.

A Forage Patch is a 3x3 field with a random 2 Berry Bushes on it. Every Mill upgrade add one extra Berry Bush on the Patch. (Max 5 Berry Bushes)
There is an L shape path hugging the 3x3 field, so there is always a path to walk, so the total side of the Forage Patch is 4x4.

A Berry Bush has the same HP as a Dark Age Palisade Wall. I don’t want to have a wall of understandable Berry Bushes (but on a historic note, they did plated thorny berry bushes along their walls to discourage attacks)
Only one village can gather from one Forage Patch.

Also unconscious, the Berry Patch is also a nice nod to what the Norsemen described as Vinland.

Unique Unit:
Mi’kmaq Hunter

Archer unit with a weak dodge ability to symbolize hiding and hit and run tactics.
It also got the ability to hunt animals like Villagers. In their culture to show your bravery it is often done in war or during hunting.

Castle unique technology:
Baaga`adowe (or baggataway)

  • Skirmisher do (a small) bonus damage to Unique Units.
Explanation I wanted to have Skirmisher bonus so that they are little more versatile then only against archer units, at first I thought of bonus against Calvary but that would not be satisfactory in the campaigns.

Then I thought of Infantry but that would be counter productive towards all the recent buffs for Infantry.

What other classes do exist that would be logical? The Samurai is the only unit that has an attack bonus against other unique units. I thought situational surprise damage from a Skirmisher to an Unique Unit could be interesting, the bonus should be small so that Skirmishers will not become a hard counter to every Unique Unit, just they punch a little bit more then you expect.

  • Imperial unique technology:
    Manitou
    Dock units (except Fishing Ships) takes up half a population space.
    Hunters (Villagers and Mi’kmaq) don’t need drop off.
    (They should have a better land bonus but I can not think of one right now, I am open for suggestions!)

Team bonus:
Archers have +2 Line of Sight

AI names
We don’t have much but we have options.
We can use names from leaders around early European contact. Like Membertouji’j and Opechancanough

We can use names from legends, like Nanabozho
My personal favourite alternative is we can call them after different Algonquian nations. List of First Nations peoples - Wikipedia

If that is not enough we can ask the descendants what they think are good traditional names.
And lastly we can take a page from Age of Mythology and use place names instead.


Spread of the Algonquian languages precontact

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Haudenosaunee, or Iroquois are too late for aoe2. They formed somewhere between 1450 CE and 1660 CE

similar for the Algonquian people. Europeans made first contact with them in 1603, and we know very little about them before that.

Both of these civs fit way better into aoe3, than aoe2

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Campaign

While I think you can make a 5 scenario campaign for the Haudenosaunee with the Great Law of Peace. I, scenario about how it was before the Confederacy

II, Convince Mohawk and Oneida to help you
III, Convince Cayuga and Seneca to join you
IV, Convince Onondaga
V, Show now with the Confederacy that working together is better than alone

However I can not think of a good 5 scenario campaign for the Algonquian.
Unfortunately we don’t know enough details.

But what we do know is that the Iroquois and Algonquian often waged war like in every human society. Warfare played, like always a multifaceted role. Some conflicts were waged for economic and political goals, such as gaining access to resources or territory, like the vital access of the Saint Lawrence River.
Exacting tribute from another nation or controlling trade routes was also important.

Revenge was a consistent motivating factor across North America, a factor that could lead to recurrent cycles of violence, often low intensity, which could last generations.

They often move their troops at night to avoid detection. And did naval landings around the Great Lakes.
On a personal level warfare was beside hunting the best place to show your courage to your fellow people.

For a general overview I recommend to read this.

Other sources
Native American’s Brilliant Warfare Tactics. It was a lot more than bows and arrows.
Reddit - Siege warfare in precolombus Americas
Iroquois Assault Tactics Used against Fortified Settlements (first part is precolonial)
Iroquois Warfare Natural or Forced Progression? Studying the impact of pre contact and post contact.
17 century source but I guess canoe building did probably not change that much.

With that information we can piece together a plausible historic scenarios.

So I suggest to combine the potential campaigns in a 6 scenario campaign were you play 3 times with Iroquois and 3 times with Algonquian.

Forsake of consistency, flow and strength of the narrative of the campaign, we take the earlier possible date for the forming of the Haudenosaunee Confederacy (the 1142 CE date instead of the 1451 date).
This podcast episode talk about the dating of the Peacemaker story and the merits of the 1142 date.

Peace and War
The Iroquois and Algonquian campaign
The campaign narration is set somewhere before 1350.

The narrator is a Mohawk captive/ adoptee in an Algonquian village.
The narrator talk about how his new Algonquian adoptive family brag/talk the last season raid where he was captured.

Scenario I, Night Raids,
Playing as the Algonquians, start in Feudal Age, limited to Castle age.

In game, we use the Day and Night cycle mechanic, during the day you control your town. You need to build an army and put them in a transport ship to bring them across the river. There you lose control over them. During the night you lose control of your town but gain control of your soldiers across the river.

So long it is night you need to raid enemy towns for extra resources but before the night is over you need to bring your soldiers back to a safe place or they will be lost.

You need to strike a balance to bring warriors across the river for night time raids and keep soldiers at home for daylight raids on your own town.

To win the scenario you need to have plundered X amount of resources, or capture a well guarded town or bring a relic home.

In the epilogue the Mohawk mention that the raid was a great feat but they would not have a chance if they would be against the full strength of the Haudenosaunee Confederacy.
The Algonquian ask to hear about the founding of the Confederacy and the Great Law of Peace. The narrator gladly want to talk about it.

The following two scenarios are about founding of the Five Nations Confederacy and the Great Law of Peace I have mostly inspired by this podcast episode
I recommend to listen to it or a different retelling of the founding of the Haudenosaunee.

Scenario II, The Prophet
Playing as the Iroquois, start in Feudal Age. Can go to the Imperial Age.

The narrator talks about the first part of the story of Peacemaker Dekanawidah, Hiawatha and Jigonhsasee.


It is important to know where the nations live.

This is a bit like the first Genghis Khan scenario where you need to help/convince other player.
You can create extra units but the population limit is low, with gaining towns it will be more.

The Hero unit Hiawatha, as a Tomahawk Warrior. Monk unit Dekanawidah meet the woman Jigonhsasee. After a short conversation/task she will help you in your quest. She will not fight but can heal/boost your troops. Your goal is to convince Mohawk and Oneida, travel around Onondagaand and then convince Cayuga and Seneca to join you for the Great Law of Peace.

For the Mohawk you have the task to help in their deer hunt.
In the forest the Mohawk have build a V shaped wall and you need to slowly “push” the deer down into the V shaped funnel. At the smallest point Mohawk hunters are ready and it is like shooting “fish in a barrel.”
If you fail the hunt, kill the deer yourself or let them escape, or you don’t want to do it. Tribute 1000 food to the Mohawk.
After that Mohawk join you and you get control of their town.

Oneida want to fish in peace and you need to drive away the Algonquians away from the lake coast.
After that Oneida join you and you get control of their town.

Tadodaho and his Onondagaand will not yet listen to you so you need to travel around them without attacking them. Killing too many of the Onondagaand units will make you lose the game because if Tadodaho lose so many men he don’t want to talk to you any more.

To convince Cayuga and Seneca you need to attack a Mississippian town in the south to open a trade route. The other task is to show you are a great hunter of dangerous animals. Kill Ornlu the Wolf, a Mother Bear, and a Ferocious Mountain Lion. (I wish Iron Boar as well but boars does not life there…)

After you done the quest of that nation, the nation town will be under your control. When all four as joined you you are ready to confront Onondagaand and win this Scenario.

Scenario III, Great Law of Peace
Playing as the Iroquois, start in Castle age.

You are ready to confront Onondagaand and Tadodaho himself. But he still not let you in his town, if enough of his people are on your side he might want to talk: convert X amount of Onondagaand units.

After that you can enter his town. Tadodaho “Bodyguards” are unconverteble. Convert Tadodaho himself to win the scenario. When Tadodaho is converted the day will turn to night to symbolize the solar eclipse.
If X amount of Onondagaand units are killed instead of converted you lose the scenario.

(I wanted a scenario that lean in the Iroquois monk bonuses, however this scenario can be easily fold into Scenario II, The Prophet.)

Scenario IV, the Five Nations.
Playing as the Iroquois, start in Castle age.

Working together is better then alone. Here has the narrator a moment to brag towards his new adoptive family about the successes of the Haudenosaunee teaming up.
You start in the middle of the map, Onondagaand territory. To win you need to have 5 relics.

Your Villagers can not build new (production) buildings until unlocked. The Onondagaand town lack Archer Range, Dock, University, Barrack, Siege Workshop, Castle and Blacksmith. But you start with your starting force and Monastery.

Mohawk, Oneida, Cayuga and Seneca are your ally. You need to bring a relic to their Monastery, you get control of their town and their buildings are unlocked for your villagers. (Only thing that does not convert is their Monastery and Market)

The Mohawk got the Archer Range and Blacksmith
The Oneida got the Dock and University
The Cayuga got the Barrack and Blacksmith
The Seneca got the Siege Workshop and Castle

The relics are in control of Algonquians, Mississippian and Huron (Iroquois) towns.

Scenario V, Control of the Land,
Playing as the Algonquians, start in Castle age.

The narrator has spent most of the year with in the Algonquian and witness the next season hunt/war.
In this scenario you fight for the vital access of the Saint Lawrence River and the best hunting grounds, fishing spot and trade routes.

In order to do that you need to build towers at the key spots and protect them, your enemies do the same. You need to have X amount of map control in order to win.

Scenario VI, Strangers on the Coast,
Playing as the Algonquians, start in Castle age.

“They are back! The Strangers are back!” the narrator was about to tell a different story when they get interrupted by current events. Everybody rush outside!

Of course I want to pit the Algonquians against the Vikings. I inspired this on a report from the Iceland that casually mention that the Greenland colony went to “Markland” for wood around the year 1347.
The battle here in game is of course bigger than it would have been in real life. But fun gameplay is more important for things like this.


The map will roughly look like this part of Canada

On different places along the coast Viking settlements are present and they working hard to cut the forest, pick berries and hunt deer.

Destroy the Lumbercamps, Trade Workshops and Town Centers to make that settlement leave.
It is a race against the clock, if the Vikings are able to gather X amount of wood you lose.
A secondary objective is stealing the “strange deer” that the Vikings are sitting on top of.
That is a possibility to get the Kanya Horseman.

In the Epilogue the Mohawk narrator mention that he slip away and has escaped from his adoptive family in the confusion and don’t know what happened to his Algonquian host or the strangers at the coast but he will have a lot of new stories to tell when he is back at his clan.

For more information about “Vikings” in North America I recommend these two videos
History With Hilbert
Atun-Shei

I have read people who suggested to have a Samuel de Champlain campaign but I would not like that in AOE II, I don’t want to have Paladins and Throwing Axemen in my historic North America campaign. AoE III is the better game to tell that story.
I don’t mind to have Spain or Portugal early colonial stories because their design lean into that time frame.

If we ever get more single Historic Battle scenarios and we need something from every continent.
The North American Historic Battle could be about Crow Creek
More information.
A Caddoan (Mississippian) settlement get attacked by an Iroquois group, around the year 1325 CE

Conclusion
The three major types of weapons used in pre Columbian North American were the war club, tomahawk and the bow. Those archetypes are used now in my three North American civ designs with the Mississippian Atassa Warrior, Iroquois Tomahawk Warrior and the Algonquian Mi’kmaq Hunter.
Also all Castel Age Unique technologies benefits Skirmisher just like the existing American civ. On top of that, my Castel Age UT are named after games they played what is often used for training for war.
The theming of that is something I quite like and proud of.
In the end I am just a European with access to freely available online sources. I hope I did the cultures justice.

I would love to see the Mississippian, Iroquois and the Algonquian in game, however I don’t see it as a high priority. First I would like to see every civilization that does not yet have a Campaign have a cool DLC.
After that is done I see room for DLC like this. I would love to see a second Spanish Campaign, De Soto is one of the most diverse conquistador story to tell. The Mississippian are a fascinating and I love them more and more as I learn more about them. Knowing that Algonquian met the Vikings is such a bizarre moment in history. And the Haudenosaunee has such an unique and interesting history with one of the oldest continuing democracy.

I have always seen Age of Empires as a game about world history, it would be a shame that this fascinating part of the world is not shown.
I also know about the dislike to add Native Americans in a medieval game. And also that a DLC like this need to have a lot of new assets. Not getting a new architecture set in the Mountain Royals DLC my hope for so many new assets is very low. So my hope of a DLC like this as well unfortunately…

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People don’t did not spawn into existence only when Europeans are there to witness them.
I invite you to look at my sources or to ignore this thread.

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that’s not what I claimed. I am saying that the Haudenosaunee did not band together until well into modern times, so there was no confederacy etc. let alone an empire

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I wouldn’t say 1450 is too late. The Aztecs really didn’t form an empire until the Triple Alliance in 1428 and the Portuguese didn’t become an empire until around 1415. The 1400s are still within AoE2’s time period, albeit on the later side of things.

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the aztec comparison doesn’t work for me: the tenochtitlan power center existed way before 1428, they were the dominant power in the triple alliance and were then given the ‘Aztec’ name as a civilization in aoe2 for recognizability. More importantly their peak of power was within the aoe2 time period, and they stopped existing as a political entity before the end of it.
Compare that the Iroquois confederacy: They only formed at the very end of the aoe2 time period and their peak was around 1700.

the county of portugal already existed in 868, so this comparison is completely off

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Ngl before I even started reading this my concern was that they’re out of scope. It seems a bit more of a stretch than the Mississippians but we’ll see.

New architecture packs are few and far between these days, maybe something that could work for both this civ and the Mississippians?

Tbh in general i’d rather see unique units be more unique than just “weaker/stronger version of XXX unit”

Makes sense, though I was admittedly kinda confused at first thinking you meant they would get cav upgrades lol.

Honestly after reading through all this, I think just Mississippians is the best way to go, the others feel too far out of scope to incorporate. I get that people have concerns about there being a single civ isolated (like Incas) but tbh I don’t think that’s a huge deal, and I don’t really want to shoehorn other civs in that don’t necessarily fit in order to rectify that.

No, they don’t, but when they didn’t have written history prior to that, it’s hard to make a civ off just archeological findings. You did a great job of it with the Mississippians but they have the advantage of fitting more fully into the AOE 2 timeline. I feel that Iroquois for sure are too tied to the Colonial timeframe in people’s minds. Algonquin perhaps has a bit more viability but I believe the Mississippians have more legs to stand on than either.

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@Velk413 Thank you for reading my designs, I completely agree that the Mississippians works way better in AoE II than the Iroquois and Algonquians.
Still I wanted to give them a honest try how they could work in game instead of dismissing them straight out of the gate.
I hope I can make people at least make them think about it and see room outside of the box.
However I would be also the first to say, this DLC would not need the highest priority.

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That feels so weird to me, I only used sources that talk about precolonial time or very early contact. I have based everything on the “medieval” life of them.

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Very good job, man. The sheer effort you made to bring up all of those details makes this idea worth discussing.

And I guess once you have a historical event set the civ could figure in the game.

The North American landscape would be a beautiful stage for those campaign scenarios.

A question: what do you plan for their tech trees in general? Would they be just like the rest of the game with minor adjustments or something more regional?

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Well, I have a gut feeling that it’s going to be abused. I don’t need to kill your Villagers, just need to disturb them with arrows. They cannot fight back like how they fight Scout Cavalry due to the range.

It’s similar to the Feudal Cavalry Archers. Maybe reserve this idea for a potential Cavalry Archer civ like the Gokturks, therefore this civ can have more Cavalry Archers than other players in the Castle age.

Why not just rename the Eagle line, like Prowler → Light Infantry → Shock Infantry. These more general term can cover cultures in a wider range of regions, even such as sub-Saharan Africa. Each civs having it can have its own bonus on it. The Eagle Warrior and Elite Eagle Warrior can be available as upgrades unique to the Aztecs that replace Light Infantry and Shock Infantry.

It is fine without this one to me when the civ has a solid HP bonus for infantry.
A well-designed civ usually has either 3 or 4 bonuses when it released.

In other words, the connections between Houses also provide 5 pop?
So how to count its HP? Together as a whole? Separated like the Walls? What if one of the houses destroyed or deleted?

It’s a weaker version of the Inca house bonus, honestly, though it is creative.
Maybe let the Longhouse an unique building replacing the House, Mill, Lumber Camp and Mining Camp? Costs 100 wood, has a size of 2 by 4 or 2 by 6, can rotate like a Gate, provides 20 populations in each Age, and can be the drop-off point of resources. Regardless of civilization, I just want a building that combines Houses and resource drop-off points.

So it is a just stronger version of Obuch? With a higher speed and probably a range.
How about just simply giving it a niche? Like giving the class of Condottiero and an attack bonus against gunpowder units, so it would be a ranged Condottiero-like unit but diffirent by being trained in Castles and available from the Castle age.

You must have at least no Arbalesters, Ongers, Galleons and Fast Fire Ships due to such a bonus.
However the units are still likely to be broken in the Castle age.

Eh, you get more food from a wolf than from a sheep, aren’t you? Maybe some gold is better.

Thinking about it roughly, the so-called Forage Patch would cause unnecessary trouble in my opinion.

  • Is it technically possible?
  • The mechanic is a bit complicated and not easy to understand.
  • It will become an obstacle and will be randomly generated, but the player cannot control its position.
  • It is the same as the Farm, with a 3 by 3 size and only one villager can be tasked on, but the player cannot quickly tell whether the berries are from Gaia or were constructed.
  • Berry bushes can be destroyed by being attacked by units other than siege weapons, which is counterintuitive.
  • If it doesn’t replace farmland, its similarity to the Farm is bound to create competition, and players will end up using only one.

Wikipedia says that the Algonquians also engaged in agriculture. Even among groups who mainly hunted, agricultural products were an important source of food. So we can keep it simple. Based on your description, why not simply allow them to generate a small amount of food while gathering wood, or have the Mill spawn 1-3 berry bushes when built?

There are at least 3 water bonuses, and even 1 more here. Too many on water but too less on land.

Basically totally agree.
The most shining period of the North American natives belongs entirely to AoE3, and AoE3 is also the most suitable to showcase their unique culture without trebuchets and crossbows obviously.

The most and only North American civilization suitable for AoE2 is actually the Skræling, to be an umbrella, but my sincere advice is to keep North America a mystery and an unknown in AoE2. Regarding potential Americas DLC, I would pick Purepecha (Tarascan), Muisca, and Chimu.

You think thats bad? I mean it is but whats ALSO bad!? Try stealing all the boars without taking a single hit of damage. Don’t even care about your base just blitz the enemy and yoink them all.

As for other aspects NOT giving us the tech tree but giving us access to big bonuses like 15 archer HP and 20 Infantry HP are scary.

Do they have halbs? As Upmost asked what is the siege archer and dock situation. This is import and information you should NOT skimp out on telling us.

Thank you all for reading my design, it is a long post, that is not always that easy.
The great thing about sharing designs is that different eyes see different things and hopefully the end result would be better.

I did mentioned it, two new sets are very unlikely, if one set would be made I suggest to have the Feudal Age would look closely to the Woodland set and Castle Age and upwards more like the Mississippians.

It is a Scout Unit, I don’t want to give it weird gimmicks, however I forgot to mention it would have bonus damage what you expect from a Scout Unit like bonus damage against Monks, so it will not be a carbon copy from the Plumed Archer, I give the example so people can think in what line they need to think. The Mangudai is at first glance a stronger Cavalry Archer but there are differences.

I did mentioned that the the Prowler Scout don’t have a bow yet but throw javelins and have a minimal range. I would not mind that they would be the slowest Scout unit in the game, so if they encounter a different scout unit they surely lose.

Fine by me. I would not mind if they lose one or both.

Indeed, the connections between Houses also provide 5 extra pop.
For the hp and destruction I was not yet sure, my instinct would say that the Longhouse would have only one HP bar higher than a individual house but not double the hp of two houses. I am also aware that make walling with them tricky. If they destroy separably it would be better to wall with.

I would not complain about that.

In my design the Tomahawk Warrior is not a Tomahawk Thrower.
Have you read my alternative for the Tomahawk Warrior?

No Arbalesters, Ongers, perfect.

Have you read this part?

I gave them so many Dock bonuses because their fleet is stuck in to the Feudal Age.

The Forage Patch could be a Blackberry bush, or another fruit you don’t encounter from Gaia.
The Bush spawn on 3x3 but the total size is 4x4, so that there is always room to walk (Or we make it so you can walk through it.)
The ground texture could also show tha# it is something build and not Gaia and it can be attack just like a farm.
It does replace the Farm for the Algonquian, so the player does not have to chose if they play as them.

If the Forage Patch is to difficult then I would not mind that as an alternative.

While I agree the most room that the Haudenosaunee can shine is in AoE III, and I am glad that they are, they had there height in 1700. However I don’t see that as a reason that they completely have no room in AoE II.

The Skræling civ I have made, they are the Algonquians.
Purepecha (Tarascan) and Chimu are also my top pick for the (first) Americas DLC.

I don’t play rank, this is something I would not have consider. Thank you for bring it to light, maybe a lame solution, what if the Prowler Scout could not click on boars?

The reason I don’t give Tech tree is that I think it take away from the discussion that I would like:

If I say they will have Two-Handed Swordsman, and one person say “No that is too strong!” and the other person say “Only Long Swordsman is too weak for an infantry civ!”
That is a discussion that I am personally not interested in and often pointless without tests ingame.
At almost every DLC people complain before release that the new civ is too strong, while after release they often under preform.

I rather leave it open so that you can make in your own mind what you think is balance.
Some bonuses are very strong, so indeed I would imagine that they lack a lot or most Imperial options.

But if you all really want a tech tree, we can try to make an outline for tech tree together.

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I think the Iroquois could enter in AoE 2, but in a XVI century campaign like Bayinnaung (1534-1580)…

I think the Missippians and the Puebloans can enter better…

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Then the opponent’s scout has to be left in the base rather than going outside for scouting because it has to defense the Villagers from being disturbed by your ranged scout, which is also disturbing.

You have Tomahawks and you do not throw it? :thinking:
Tomahawks in AoE3 would be more interesting as they can throw.

I have. I just have thought the effect of convertion isn’t suitable for a ranged unit.

Remember it is +15 HP and +15% speed.
Even Mangonels would still be broken for the monk siege rush in the Caslte age.
Now I think they should lack Crossbowmen too.

Then they would be overpowered in the Feudal age. They could be so cheap only after hitting the Castle age.
It’s hard for me to say how much of the discount is balanced when they can get +15HP and +15% speed.

4x4 buildings but only 3x3 with berries, that means they will always be built on a certain side of TCs and Mills, like previous Farms, since the Villagers would not be evenly distributed.

Replacing Farms to provide food, only one villager can be tasked on, can be destroyed, and can now even be made for walking through. Well, why don’t you just keep their Farms and give their Farms a unique skin of blackberries? Clearly the Farms can be walk through and be destroyed. Maybe the blackberry farm can have a small gimmick to be diffirent from the general one, but let it technically still a Farm simply.

There won’t be infinite civilizations in the game, that’s reason enough.
For the limited slots I’d rather reserve them for civilizations that shined before the 15th century.

North American civs FTW :smiley: Like the architecture you’ve shown for the Hauds. Hopefully we’ll get them one day.

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