Would you like to see the Iroquois (Haudenosaunee) in Age of Empires 2?
I sure would! (This architectural image is also part of a proposition for how the civ might work.)
The wonder is based on Samuel De Champlain’s depiction of the Iroquois capital city and his description of the Huron capital.
I’ve replaced houses with the Longhouse, a Unique Building with a hypothetical higher cost, population, and the late-game ability to produce villagers slowly
(Certain features like the stone walls and stables) wouldn’t be accessible outside the scenario editor.
Having an Iroquois castle wouldn’t as anachronistic or inaccurate as you may think. Europeans would frequently refer to fortified Iroquois buildings and villages as “Castles”
I have a silly video explaining more details about my proposition for the full mechanics of the hypothetical civilization here:
(As a sidenote: While many North American peoples probably do not deserve a spot alongside other great medieval “Empires”, the Iroquois, before and during early decades of contact with the wider world showed great aptitude for adaptation, coordination, and projection of power and culture)
Gunpowder being wrong at first, yes. But by the early 1600s there are more Iroquois guns than there are Europeans in North America. So sure, that is a bit iffy, depending on when the AOE2 timeline stops. But if they’re adding the “Return of Rome” DLC, I don’t think it would be unreasonable to expand the timeline by a few decades in the other direction.
When it comes to horses it is rare to find examples of Iroquois using them in combat. (Especially following the time of First-Contact) This Mohawk YouTuber gives a decent explanation as to why Iroquois did not often use horses. - One reason why the Iroquois didn't use horses. - YouTube
And the Wonder is based on a real structure, yes! It is mentioned in the video linked in the top post. During one of Frenchmen Samuel De Champlain’s battles with the Iroquois he drew a sketch of their capital city. He described it as having 4 walls and being 30 feet tall (seen below). Later in his accounts Champlain describes the Huron capital city, being much larger and taller, hosting 7 layers of walls. The wonder is an amalgamation of both. Champlain detailed these accounts around 1609; I believe it is reasonable to assume these structures and similar ones would have been standing in the 1500s and before.
Also the game roughly ends in 1600 so anything beyond that time is kinda blurry.Rome alongside huns and goths is fine rome can also represent papacy which is a medieval entity.
I haven’t found any early examples of Iroquois cannons, no. However, they did often buy and steal foreign technology. (and that is part of the mechanic I suggested the civ could have).
I agree about Rome and the Huns. I was referring to the Return of Rome DLC that is coming out soon, which will incorporate the ancient Egyptians and Babylonians (and probably others) into Age of Empires 2 as well. Both civilizations which ended long before Medieval times.
I have an Iroquois civ concept on the wiki with a Wonder not based on anything. I’m going to use your concept as my own, since it’s actually really cool.
The architecture looks nice, especially the Wonder. I don’t understand the last three civ bonuses, though. What do they mean? –2 line of sight for enemy units sounds pretty powerful and anti-fun, units taking –75% cavalry damage sounds irrelevant since they don’t have cavalry, and the Blacksmith upgrades thing sounds like it might be exploitable by your opponent, depending on how it works. But maybe I’ve misinterpreted?
-2 line of sight means the diameter of the Iroquois line of sight would subtract 2 tiles from the outer edge of your enemies LOS before the Iroquois unit is visable. If you’re careful (as an opponent of the Iroquois) you’ll be able to notice your absence of sight as a sign of the enemy’s presence.
The cavalry bonus means your units are less vulnerable to enemy cavalry damage as opposed to your ‘cavalry’ being less vulnerable. Maybe -75% is a bit much. the purpose is to dissuade your enemies from being able to use cavalry charges against you as a on-size-fits-all solution like can happen with Meso civs If you’re not careful. Historically cavalry was ineffective against the Iroquois due to their landscape and tactics.
And I agree! the blacksmith upgrades can be exploitable. playing as the Iroquois, it would hypothetically encourage an aggressive raid-and-retreat play style in the early game since your progress is dependent on your enemies.
Ok, that’s not as bad as I’d thought. Would this indirectly nerf enemy ranged units’ range as well? I’m not sure, but I think line of sight and range are related, in that you can’t attack a unit you can’t see.
Oh, I see. I think this is anti-fun as well, then. It’s going to be really annoying to fight against these with any civ that relies on cavalry. It could be a good feature for a unique unit, but I think it will be unenjoyable to play against if it applies to all units.
I’m still unsure how it works. Does it mean that the only way to obtain an upgrade is to kill a unit with that upgrade? And the kill has to be performed by a Sachem?
Hypothetically yes. But do you think it might be more beneficial for range to still apply while LOS does not? For instance, a cavalry archer starts automatically firing at a target within his range, but out of his LOS. A target the unit can see but the player can’t?
Fair enough. What if it was only around or a bit above 25 percent? something similar to the Sicilian civ effect on all bonus damage?
Ideally, yes it would have to be done by a Sachem (Thus why they’re available in the feudal age). The unit they kill would not have to already have that upgrade - just any enemy unit. This would unlock an upgrade that could be researched for free. The prioritizing selection of which upgrades are unlocked could be done a number of ways.
Hopefully this mechanic would encourage early production and CAREFUL usage of the Sachem, so a high risk in the early game would pay off with an easy time in the late game. This process would hopefully reflect the authentic historic way Iroquois achieved new technology; through contact with outsiders, conquest, and capture. (Yes, they would also purchase new tech but that’s boring lol)
Is that too complicated? Is there a better way that a similar mechanic could be implemented or is there a completely different kind of mechanic that you could see as being more appropriate?
I think you can attack a unit that’s not in your line of sight if you manage to target it somehow, although I can’t think how that could actually happen (and maybe I’m thinking of AoE1?). Either way, I’m not really how this bonus would play out – in particular, it seems like it would be difficult for the Haudenosaunee player to make deliberate use of it.
Sure, you could do that. I think gameplay-wise it would be more interesting and easier to balance as a larger benefit for a smaller range of units, rather than a blanket bonus for everything.
I’m not sure. If this is your only source of upgrades, your opponent can just field whatever counters Sachem (something has to, after all) and you might never get any upgrades.
To me, the obvious way to represent technology stealing would be something that allows you access to a unit/tech in your opponent’s tech tree that isn’t normally in yours. My first thought was an Imperial Age unique tech that gives you the effect of your opponent’s unique tech(s), but it would be really variable as to whether that was worthwhile (e.g. it’s potentially really good against Aztecs or Britons but completely useless against Franks or Burmese).
Looks very good. The only critique I can offer is that the Imp University and TC look slightly European - to the point where they could almost pass for Viking structures. I think it’s their departure from the typical rounded style into something more angular that gives me this impression (and to be fair, there are surely some similar aspects of Viking and Haudenosaunee architecture). Apart from that, the set does a good job of being recognizable yet distinctive.
