I think this is an exageration. FU Paladins only survive 10% more against arrows than Burg ones (they survive 54 shots)
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As most civs do in AoE2, so I think thatās not a problem. Burgundians have vineyards to counter that weakness. Maybe they get very little gold but thatās still more than the enemy gets.
I guess, sure. My argument was never about that, so I donāt mind those early statistics.
This kinda shows how Spanish are lacking eh?
Well if you compare them in TEAM GAMES, which I didnāt do (and I donāt know why you shift that argument there so often) then yes, those 6 shots a generic paladin can tank over a Burgundian one are a difference 
Anyway I felt your presumed I wanted them nerfed. I donāt. They probably need a change for their imp UT, but otherwise they seem fine from my understanding.
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okay nearly as well was an exageration, but still - which would you rather have. burgundians paladins or normal ones?
no, you just have civs who have Hussars with 20 extra HP, or light cavalry with 3 extra attack, or other such bonuses that allow them to continue to excell in the late gamE instead.
except spanish arenāt absolutely trash in the late game. spanish could absolutely use a buff - but when gold runs out Spanish still have all 3 fully upgraded trash units AND supremacy villagers.
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Spanish also has viable rams unlike Burgundians who have pretty bad rams
This is not true. You can get bow saw, horse collar (actually, you get this before getting up to feudal but you get the point), wheelbarrow and make scouts at the same time without doing idle time.
Winrates means nothing and you know it too, especially when they are referred to such a wide category like 1650+. This remember me the good old time when people told me aztecs werenāt good on arabia because of that site
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No man, my english is basic, I mean you have some good ideas
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Is it? Iām pretty sure this isnāt possible with the 20 pop build I use for my burgs. Maybe with 22 pop itās possible, but it delays the scrush unnecessary.
And then comes the big con to a build like this: What then? Because constant vil + scout production consumes your free food at an alarmingly high level. As you also invested all your wood into upgrades, you donāt have much either. You are forced to make a hard switch to farms because you burnt through your free food and die to every little bit of agression your opponent throws at you. Especially maa + archers.
Itās a terrible build.
If you are the agressor, you can try to make tight builds like this, but for greedy eco attempts itās just not a viable build in maps like arabia. Itās that easy.
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And still Cysion said that they want all civs among 45%-55% across all ELO
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When the civ isnt being too overwhelming for the general playerbase nor the pros you cant justify nerfing it.
You can easily do it 21 pop, not 22. Try it for yourself, thereās no idle time too. You are underestimating how much wood income you have after the upgrades.
And Iām not making up numbers, I literally saw a 2k3 do the build 11.
This is simply not true 11. Again, you are underestimating the number of res you get. You wonāt die because youāll make the units. You are literally thinking of the old burgundians, this is their problem.
This is also not true. M@a archers, is still a very good build with them. Maybe you wonāt find the res wheelbarrow right away, but youāll easily fit horse collar and bow saw, which will still give you a way better eco than any other civ while doing it. The only reason why m@a archers is worse than scout is that youāll have to make a tech switch in the direction of kts sooner rather than later
Once again, you are pretty wrong. You can do those builds, even at high elo because, as i said, the 21 pop scout with every eco up except heavy plow is taken by a 2k3 player.
You guys are talking like the optimal build for them has already being figured out. I already said it, this is not the moment where you can tell how strong this civ his. It has not passed enough time, and ranked are not a good indicator either, since according to that site goths are still a better civ on arabia than franks, while they clearly arenāt.
The only sure thing here is that someone is understimating how good this civ really is if they think they cannot make scout while squeezing in the eco upgrades in a 21 pop scrush
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Yes for that same reason I would say they should be watched closely
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If the civ ends up being too overwhleming in either case ofc we will have to nerf it. But rn we shouldnt try to nerf anything else than Flemish Revolution
JUST AND IDEA!!!
When ābalancingā, why not change a number from +5 to +4 instead of going directly to +3?
I see lots of ideas in here and many of them suggest changing stats by 2 or 3 points when they are currently only 5. Thatās not a balance, thatās single shot, manual pump, dollar store, foam dart level of nerf. And also, Aztec win rate is at 49%, but thatās averaging in the months that they were higher, which also take up more of that graph if i recall, so overall it would seem like skipping the +4 mangled them too much. I see other ppl complaining about the monk techs +5hp ācauz renaā, and please donāt SKIP to +3hp like u did on the eco thing. NO REASON why you all cant āadjustā by a single point and see how it goes first. Same goes for you all and you giant list of ideas. Stop demanding major nerfs, like saying El Dorado needs to be dropped from +40 to +25? Are you kidding? They literally have no 0 cavalry, and 0 gunpowder. And also thier eco tech doesnt really apply as much in late game, exta vil is long gone, no more obsidian arrowsā¦ i guess they should just fight with 2 swords and onagers eh? At least they have FU halbs, jesus.
Also, why is everything needing to be nerfed or reduced or diluted? I suggest instead of nerfing civs, how about buff some of the ones that need it.
ALSO just because the stats say that they are winning or losing here or there doesnāt really mean a whole lot. Maybe theres one clan or something that only play that civ and they always win and it messes with the stats, hypothetical, but you get the idea. There really needs to be more emphasis put on making sure the ALL the civs truly have an identity. Too many times Iām trying to decide what to build and it feels like lots of techs and units buffs etc are just kinda randomly sprinkled around with honestly too much thought put into balancing everything.
btw does anyone play all techs option? for any reason? or is there any kind of reason to play it? i was thinking instead of that you could have an option for āhistorical modeā or possibly ācompetitive modeā and then just make an extra civ that has all units and techs available.
I know it might sound strange, but there might be too much focus on the ranked competitive scene. Remember, thatās really just a super specific basic game mode that garners almost ALL of the weight in making any of these changes. Not saying ranked is bad or should be neglected, on the contrary. Im saying the focus to any more changes or ābalancesā needs to be on buffing civs that donāt have good options. The entire āthis civ should be nerfed because xā is probably because the civs those players are choosing just have weak options and nothing useful or interesting to use.
Seriously, if they keep nerfing everything you all might as well just play all techs mod because itās going to get so watered down thatās exactly what itās going to be.
Okay letās say hypothetically this is true. yeah you have extra wood income. yeah you have wheelbarrow.
But the fact is you still invested 150 extra wood into upgrades, so even with your extra wood income, you will still need to chop around 700 just to break even on where your total wood is at. its really simple math. for example if you would have without upgrades chopped 100 wood, your opponent is instead getting 120 and you are getting 140. sounds great. you got 20 extra wood. but he also invested 150 less wood as well, so heās still 130 wood ahead of you at that point. and thatās assuming generic and not a civ like celts, who would get 15% extra wood production for free, who has chopped 135 wood to your 140. or a civ like Burmese who get the wood upgrade for free, who is 200 wood ahead of you. or a civ like Franks who got the farm tech for free. or Japanese who spent half the wood on their resource camps. the list goes on. they also, since you grabbed wheelbarrow, are 3 villagers ahead of you. I want to see how this civ does in tournaments before we nerf the crap out of them. Iād still rather see the civ nerfed elsewhere not at the eco, like say at the stable tech discount or Flemish Revolution.
Iād really like to see this game you are referring too because i am sure there are weaknesses that could be exploited.
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FINALLY someone speaks some sense. Some of the āāāābalanceāāāā threads floating around in the forums are insane. (not singling out this thread, thereās others too)
E.g.
YES yes yes yes. It feels nice to hear that someone else is also annoyed with this.
Exactly what I have been saying to people too
yeah i agree with some of what equalizer wants, but for example, why buff cav archer build time? they are already strong as is.
Damn u guys are heated over this Burgundian thing. On that subject I thought it would be cooler to make the eco techs available 1 age early, cost the same, but allow the tc to upgrade to wheelbarrow or handcart while it is also aging up. I would prefer that instead of cheaper axe and such, and since those would cost the same, ud have to have the resources to get it so soon after spending most on teching up, so it wouldnāt be super powerful unless someone had the extra res, planned it out right, and remembered to do it.
other options:
eco techs cost 1/2, research %100 faster?
wheel and handcart are instant, but still cost?
wheel/cart are free but u have to research them still
dark age techs require no wood/gold ā¦ feudal techs require no wood?
I havenāt looked much into the Burgundian thing, might try some stuff out, let you know what i come up with.;
we had this before and NO ONE USED THE bonus because it just wasnāt cost effective to get anything because it was so expensive. and the civ was complete garbage
donāt know if you could feasibly find the extra food laying around to grab wheelbarrow while aging up.
i think that could be interesting for a new civ.
worse versions of the vikings bonus.
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Blockquote You
thatās the point, u need to grab a little extra food, etc, age up, and while aging save a little more res, thenclick it and hopefully have it done by the time ur at feudal or something close to that, itās not perfect, gimme a sec to look into it
-Quote coding man
Well I saw Viper doing this in arabia invitationalā¦
Except Viper made the ultimate greed and ONLY got all the eco upgrades, no military (!).
Of course if the opponent does nothing you get away with the greed. But we are talking over openings which need to work if your opponent puts pressure on you. And I donāt see this working. The build is just too tight and every little bit of pressire would kill it immediately.
This is the crux with burgs. Looks like they could do everything - but the truth is, they donāt get away with it if pressured. They just die if you are too greedy with gettin too many of th upgrades.