Fast Imp Monk Rush is sick with Aztecs. They don’t die to anything. They easily convert Crossbows or CA and tank vs Light Cavs and if u add 3 spears u kill everything easily.
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I will go with simple steps:
Mameluke: +5F -5G
Incas: team bonus - walls built 20% faster (defensive civ)
Burmese: howdah changed to civ bonus
Castle Age UT: something mild
Goths: Plate Barding (just this, nothing else)
Cumans: debatable
Burgundians: stable techs discount reduced to 33%
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Except saracens have -100 wood markets that helps them to archer rush in feudal
And cheaper trade rate that helps them to rebalance their economy.
Portuguese only have -20% gold discount and no other eco bonus.
Besides I don’t even know why we are arguing over gold return, when that tech should be revamped into something else entirely. No necessarily gold return for some unit.
When did I ever change my mind in such a manner?
I said before that I like the burgundian change and was curious how it plays out, but only regarding the interactioon with their powerspikes, mostly the op flemish revolution. And I’m still with this opinion.
I said, that I thought incas will be ok with the changes, and it looks I’m also right with this.
I said malay and sicilians changes seem to be off target, and I’m still with it.
Please tell me, when I changed my mind in this manner.
But for sure I will change my mind if I’m proven wrong, it just rarely happens. Because opposed to you I try to understand what is happening there and don’t spam anything what comes through my mind.
Let them make your mameluk changes. Then you will see everybody will complain about that unit being op as hell, and for good reason, Because it would be.
I have suggestions and solution ideas for some topics I looked deeper into. And I try to explain other people what came through my mind when I considered them.
I don’t spam a 3 sheet long list of proposed balance changes without any explanation and considering what would be the consequences of the proposed changes.
… this alone is broken. One big problem of archers is that they set you on a timer because of their high gold ratio and you can quite easily lose a lot of them. Saracens also get a very strong bonus for their archers, they shred palisades.
Saracens also have quite good siege to deal with the opponents onagers if they become a problem for their archers too. And those returning the gold cost partially, too…
That’s absurd.
TO get it in perspective, 30 % gold payback results in them being able to build about 50 % more gold units… That’s basically broken, it’s unmatched by any other civ.
Just to pick one of your “balanced” changes.
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Two possibilities here:
A) buff the eco power of the tech. I would make it reduces the market fee an aditional 5% (still worse tham sarracens). This would improve the good vietnamese late game a bit. Another option is the tech reduces the price of some units (gold units, etc) which would be useful before and during trash wars.
B) replace the concept. Paper money actually didnt work in Vietnam during middle ages because common people didnt have confidence enough in the system…
If paper money is replaced, there are room for improvement. For example, I would make a tech that buff LOS for all units, or archers speed, or something else to resemble warfare strategies. Another option is a gunpowder tech (bbc moves faster?). This would be great for fast imp builds.
This could work.
Burmese will save time and resource. It’d extend their momentum gained by arambai destroying buildings, while protecting them from skirms at the same time.
Why didn’t you say the same thing about portuguese with their free 20% gold on everything rather than talking about aUT with only 25% return?! I bet that if the portuguese 20% free gold will be introduced in nowadays you will say no it is broken.
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The problem is that both of your suggestion are bonuses in the game for other civs. In general Vietnamese as a civ is fine but their paper money need something else, what if we say paper money generate gold same rate as you have like 3 relics in monastery?
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Mameluke with 80 gold still so high. Agree for Burmese. Burgundians eco need a nerf not their stables
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This is more and less the same as vineyards…
Some overlapping is unavoidable. Better is nothing
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This is different since they vinyards need farms, but this generate is free
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True, but it is the same as saying than scutage is different from paper money because the gold depends of the military units. By the end, they would feel similar
Keep harping about that eco. Already proved it isn’t that broken
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Instead of this which would make the earlier use bonus unless again maybe 40% dark age 35% feudal 25% castle and 15% imperial food reduction which will still allow you to use the bonuses early but to a slightly less effective.
It’s different. The Portuguese only can field 25 % more gold units opposed to 50 % more. Yes this 10 % discount difference makes that big difference in numbers. That’s how maths work.
WIth this difference saracens could justify making a double gold comp, but the 20 % sicount for portuguese is in most cases not enough to justify that play.
Portuguese have also a versatile tree, but saracens is way more open, just because they also get camels + FU cav archers.
Portuguese don’t get any bonus on their major lines, Saracens get bonusses to archers and camels.
And TBH I also think that the portuguese bonus is actually the strongest overal military bonus in the game. But they also get basically nothing else on land maps. Most other civs get 1-3 eco and 1-3 military bonusses. Even if they are all weaker than the one ports get, in addition they are usually stronger.
But I’m currently working on trying to figure out what holds portuguese back, it is a very complicated case. I think they are already way better than their winning rate suggests. But it needs time to figure out, and I will take me that time because I don’t want to cim up with wrong approaches and conclusions.
Yeah especially Portuguese have a building called “Fetoria” generate everything for free too, I bet if they introduce them nowadays you will say no this is broken because you always say no because like any other one you fear from change. 25% gold return if happened it is almost a “meh” bonus, because it is a UT that need a castle and it is a return because you need to get many losses to get the benefit unlike the free portuguese. No one want to spend ton of golds on any army to get back only 25% this is just a small helpful thing for Saracens rather than their useless Madrasah and their sick expensive UU and even their market are helpful on early game and to balance but it is not free because you need to buy/sell goods to get the benefit.
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Because bowsaw and heavy plow in feudal with this cheap dirt costs is not ok at all, wheelbarrow with 85 food is not ok and same for any other tech with their age before bonus, and cheap stables, farms make gold, relics make food what more?!!!
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Celts literally get 35% faster lumberjacks in feudal for the price of 100 food and 50 wood.
Burgundians get 40% for the price of 125 food and 150 wood.
There cheap stable techs are offset by rhe lack of bloodlines meaning they are on a timer.
Their farms generate gold at a very slow rate.
If getting techs earlier was so great they wouldn’t have needed buffs.
2 Likes
11 this will not change anything because the advantage already to get them earlier
Yes this thing is broken and needs a rework. But it’s rarely worth it in 1v1 land games to get more than 1, FImp full feito is basically dead.
And one Feitoria makes .7 gold/sec… barely more than a relic.
But the trash feito is for sure OP as hell. And I have a Idea how to rework it in a way it can solve the issues with ports. But I need more testing to promote it. My Idea would be to include the feitoria to their standard opening, so everybody could also see how it influences their play. This way it would be way easier to balance. But please give me some time to work it out.