Byzantine Are HOT Trash... Respectfully

Out the gate, this idea that “Byz is soo complex and needs to be DISCOVERED,” is silly and untrue. The only new concept (to this game) Byzantines have is the mercenary system; which by the way is on of its underwhelming and unreliable mechs

(UNLESS you wanna play 40min No rush treaty full market/trade/fishing full boom…even then is it versatile if you’re forced into 1 path and RNG trade post options?).

Let’s just get into the weak points:

Cistern are NOT cost effective to spam; given their progressive cost; high build time; and mandatory spacing. To be fair! You CANNOT simplify the cisterns as mere economical benefits (5%/10%/15%/20%/25%). The mechanic overall is a cross between Golden Age buffs/ Delhi Research/ Ottoman Military Production speeds. However practically, early in the game the cisterns are mostly an economical structure and provide niche other uses.

Next, (technically was first), the lackluster Merc System. The concept avails Byz with options to supplement or even close the military roster gap for Byz; for example Byz has no feudal heavy units and can really use one vs early Feudal units; we got Eastern Contract! Likewise a strong Anti range/ anti cav option; and last a decent powerful range/ close combat blob power in the West. However with no discounts AND slow to abysmal oil generation options, you don’t really get to PLUG your holes but more like decorate your army so its looks DIVERSE!

They SHOULD completely adopt the AOE3 consultant building and permit us to destroy a contract and pick again as many times as we wish with a sufficient cooldown; THIS would make Merc mech truly versatile being able to switch out the roster MID game! Make destroying contracts take 7mins without buffs so with level 5 cistern would still take 2 mins which is a meaningful delay even late game to constantly be switching between contracts; and early you’re less likely to have full level 5 nor the overwhelming oil to constantly be switching.

Next IT should require you have a merc house near a tradepost to garner the tradepost military options BUT, the options ABSOLUTELLYYYY should be available at EVERY constructed merc houses for as long as there is one house near the tradepost? Whyy, if World Edge is behind all this, we repeating the Errors of pre AOE3 Native Embassy in base?? kinda baffles me?

Last point on the merc; IT APPEARS, the designers wanted Byz to be a trade civ given the Market Military. It appears to me they wanted Byz to directly make units out of the Neutral markets but probably thought it was a bit unfair as it would prove TOO useful to defending your trade AND MORE, so it might have been a last minute nerf to require a merc house within 5 tiles, so thats likely why the merc didn’t transfer from Neutral Market to ALL merc houses?

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HAVING SAID ALL THAT I HAVE SAID…

If you play Byz EXACTLY like mongols…maybe the civ is viable; tower rush> cav landmark raids > trade > merc… its working wonders for me; but is very very high APM.

YEP…i think im completelllyy wronggg…

Trade played like mongols is WAAYY WAYYYY WAYY STRONG… time to detele this post and establish a trade Byzantine is TOO OP thread.

The mangonel Towers in CAste age make for exceptional static defensive which is exactly what you need defending your trade. Accompany that with some cistern for damage reduction AND unlike mongols youh have walls/ stone walls at that? I will not be surprised when this Mongols Style Byz Trade catch fire! Lastly you dont have to go straight into it; You can play it like Mongol SilverTree OR mongol Deer Stone; and your towers getting stone early means its even easier to fortify your outputs; so it plays a lot a lot like mongols!

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This aged like milk.

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Only took me losing 6 ranks to figure out this mongol aggressive playstyle. I feel very rewarded even though i technically gave up and started a byz is trash thread…

I would like a few byzantine changes still.

Cistern need to take only 15s to build instead of 20s. Also max cost should cap at 200 stone instead of 300.

Next mercenaries should train faster by 5s across the board pre Cistern buff. Mercenaries once unlocked should be trainable from ALL merc houses as long as the prerequisites are continuously met.

Also mercenaries contracts can be discarded and re instituted indefinitely with a long pre Cistern cooldown of 5-7min to destroy a contract.

Last buff All 3 fertilization food eco upgrades each adds 5% more oil generation on berries and farms. (Max of 1.15 that is multiplicative to the standard oil generation AND multiplicative to the winery buff for a wobbing 1.15 x 1.6 x 1.2 for winery farm oil and 1.15 x 1.6 x 1.5 for winery berries).

We’re gonna be swimming in oil and mega versatile!!!

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A lil more insight into why this trade playstyle is so strong. If yall remember early mali famriba build one of the issues how straightforward the macro was; get gold and you can do all things. It was toxic and oversimplified. Well this byzantine trade is a step removed because you’re essentially prioritizing oil. All gold becomes oil basically and with it you can make a plethora of units to complete your roster. Similar to mongols you can mainly focus on securing your trade with towers an especially in castle the mangonel towers are broken.

I actually think this might get nerfed??

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Byzantines are good. No need to rework. :slight_smile:

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I’m thinking they will get buffs especially to landmarks that are underpowered like the grand winery. Similar to how most of the Delhi Sultanate landmarks got buffed or fixed.
Since their performance is so bad in all levels of play i’m expecting that they will get buffs really soon.

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What if cisterns costed always 100 stone, and byzantine started with 100 stone?

Or maybe a bonus of 10-15-20-25-30 % instead.

Because it’s a bit hard to pin point what is bad about byzantine if it’s not cisterns. Everything seem good when taken 1 by 1.

Their spearman are good , their cavalry are good, mercenary are good and oil is basically free resources that you wouldn’t get otherwise. Their landmark are also good.

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Except for the Grand Winery it doesn’t work on most maps, and using it for an 8 min FC into relics is a little awkward HRE or Delhi just do that much better. I think they should add mill upgrades to the grand winery.

Instead of adding 50 stone cost per construction they could add 25 stone cost per construction

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Why not just make them “free” or a super low cost like 20 stone and you can build 2 dark age, 1 additional per age

The water level bonuses would be locked behind an age wall. You wouldn’t be able to get more than five cisterns limiting your city expansion

I don’t like reducing agency and forcing players to always play the same way i think keeping different strategies possible is usually better.

they could boost all water level by 5% and it would still be fine i think. (and don’t change cost). Hre can boost up to 40 with prelates and English up to 30 on farms, so a 10 / 15 / 20 /25 / 30% based on water level doesn’t seem too strong. Since its limited to a zone.

Let players experiment with water network before age up or the opposite.

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I normally build 5 cisterns before reaching castle age. Unless I’m going 1 cistern into 7:30 FC

The aqueducts system is also wonky in that if a structure impedes a direct connection from cistern A to cistern B the cost of the aqueducts jump up by several several stone which means it takes longer to build more walk time and more overall material.

Then when they break they break like wall segments at 3 at a time. Granted 600Hp for 2 stone cost is a steal.

Next topic
5 cisten network will cost you 750 stone in cisterns plus 16 to 40 stone per aqueduct plus build time and walk time and minus any stone rebates obtained. If you started in dark age i think you can pull off. 6min level 5 cistern network so the upfront cost would be 750+ 20x4 +buildtime &walk time - rebates.

Nominal rebates by 6 mins would be 180 stone which means a 3min return on investment. 3min is a long to time nothing .

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There the best new civ if you know how to play them keep practicing;)

So why is it from the average joe to the season pro ppl are losing a such achogher rate???¿

I will say of tou make it to the late late game byzantine is bonkers; highly defensive with bombard and mango towers; steady income of oil allows for some of the strongest siege and unique military unit roster!!

But getting there is the challenge. Having said all this o figured something out woth cistern mathematically. Tou guys whoukd go check my last post. And i want math ppl to critique my modeling if yall would be so kind.

It’s hard to tell exactly since the civ is so new, but the winrates HAVE increased a bit since the stats went live on AOE4 earlier, so the current winrate should be a bit higher than what is displayed.

Civ also is very complex and has lots of decision-making even at the top level it’s not really figured out. That said the numbers are low enough that they probably are a bit too weak (and frankly the Chinese, another super difficult civ is struggling just as much if not more right now)

I’m stupid. Byzantines ain’t trash… check this out:

Winery buff farm with level 5 cistern and just 1 15% food upgrade (that’s only the first one) equates to 1.15x1.32x0.75x1.25= 1.423125 total resource active gathering rate on said farm. This is worth 1.9 ish a vanilla villager on sheep!!

Aka level 5 cistern into orchards is legit if they let you get away with it!!! You’d pay off that wood cost in 63s under the circumstances. Meanwhile the standard vanilla 75 wood farm would require 130s to break even and that’s with horticulture!!!

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I think one of the things holding Byzantines back is the current aggressive map pool. The current pool is pretty favorable to feudal aggression (combined with the popularity of Jeanne). I think after Jeanne nerfs and/or a more conservative or neutral map pool, we could see a noticeable winrate increase.

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I love this map pool. Best pool ever ever!!! Only 2 camp/wall maps; gorge a close 3rd campy map. Otherwise very open which leads to all types of aggression and timings.
I do hope they fix the consistency of resources spawns bc i continously get far golds on maps that should be far meanwhile oppo golds are safe…

I digress; i think fast 5 can contend with delhi and ottoman and English and french early aggression. Not so much mongols though.