Give Cataphracts extra pierce armor and a small cost reduction in gold even if it means increasing food cost by x2 however much gold cost is reduced.
that low pierce armor is their for a reason. without it, cataphracts have no clear weakness.
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Arrows will still demolish them, a slight buff perhaps +1 or 2 to anti ranged arrow fire to increase the survivability a small amount similar to how the boyar recieved a speed reduction and a pierce armor boost even tho theyāre meant for physical fights. It would be nice if the cataphract could withstand 40-60 arbalest shots or at least near there. Even palladins get demolished by arrows.
which is okay considering the unit literally resists 12/16 bonus damage, which cuts halb bonus damage down by half, and cuts Heavy Camel bonus damage down to a measly 2.
and yeah, halbs are still doing 16 extra damage a hit, but Cataphracts literally do 32 damage per swing to them, before armor, and not factoring in trample.
so yeah. Cataphracts need to have some sort of weakness.
Boyar donāt resist bonus damage though.
so what do you want to give up so that your unit that already resists its normal counters, attacks faster then any cavalry in the game, and has trample damage, can resist archers better too?
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The cost to get them up and running is already high enough. If I were to choose a nerf- make them the same speed as the Slavsā Boyar
yes, and thatās why iām in favor of reducing the food cost of the elite upgrade by about 400 food. to help make them more affordable. and before you say that isnāt much. they already save over 300 food on going to imp. that means they are already +700 food.
but the fact is that giving them 5 melee armor, 6 pierce armor (with upgrades) and 16 bonus damage resistance, makes it hard as heck to take the unit down cost effectively.
and zero logical reason to make them slower. the reason boyar can logically be slow is because they wear a ton of armor.
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Rand Alāthor, Perrin Aybara, Matrim Cauthon
May all three have the luck of the dark one, but I do say sir, arrows will still slice through them like butter, itāll only increase their odds of survival running away from arrow fire rather than by any large margin within the fight
yeah and that is the problem. they literally have no weaknesses if you increase their pierce armor.
btw, good to see a fellow WoT fan.
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If anything Iād be up for a gold cost reduction, even if it means more food cost. It takes too much resources tbh, especially gold.
Love those books
to be fair, the byzantines donāt need much, most people recognize that they do need something.
most people think a small reduction in food cost on elite upgade, but 1 pierce armor isnāt a bad alternative. i just think it might give them way too much resistance for a unit that already resists its normal counters.
There is literally zero reason to make pikes or Camels against Cataphracts.
yeah the pikes do decent damage, but they get MAULED by the 14 damage + 18 bonus damage + trample damage. its not even pretty.
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I like the byzantines as an ally for my Teutonic Healing Fortress formation, but their weakness to arrows for their cataphracts always keeps me on edge as to whether or not theyāre top of the list for me- I would love to have The 50% healing bonus to the 29 Teutonic Knight, 21 hand canoneer, 10 monk square formation(stand ground) elsewise- and let them play run around the fortress whenever they need heals or to kill charging halbs- perhaps adding in the slavsā boyar and the gothsā huskarl for good measure alongside the regular teuton support formations of 20 tks, 20-30 pallies and 9 bombard canons-
I just wish the cataphracts were either affordable or had better survivability against arrows
GC is a ranged unit that donāt need reinforcements as often once massed. Catas have too long TT for a castle melee UU. Melee UUs need more reinforcements
Catas beat imp camel 1v1 and en masse
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that 16 resistance doing work.
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what about reducing the training time to 18/16?
not saying the TT needs a buff, just pointing DoctBaghi is comparing it to wrong units
Your sorcery will not avail you here, AisāSedai!
Now FU Cata has 5PA, and can take 30 FU Arb shots. FU Cavalier can take 35 shots, Byz Cavalier - 30 shots.
If we add 1PA, will have 6PA, and will take 38 FU Arb shots.
For comparison: Byz Pala 54, FU Pala 60, Frank Pala 64.
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+6 on top of 16 attacks of the paladins.
Why would I ever use camels for raiding, only Indians have to raid with camels, otherwise they are only a counter unit, and the bizz are the most cost-effective counter.
It also mean that less of your cataprhacts can fight more of the enemy units thank to trample.
You lose, who care, you stop the raids, kill some of the enemy units and badly injured other and saved resources while do that, instead your enemy has payed the full price. You have successfully defend your base while also prepared yourself for the long run.
Bizz already have the paladins line when they are against an archer civ, so there is no reason to buff the anti-archer armor of cataprhacts. At the start of the game you have to decide whith which unit youāll go, cataprhacts or paladins, depending on your decision you can win or lose, by making the cataprhacts more similar to the paladins, you remove this decision, and so you buff the civ by a lot.
But the boyars are a different unit, they donāt have an anti-infantry attack and armor, not trample, so you can still counter them with pikes and camels.
Bizzantines have cheaper ESkirms, onager, paladins and siege rams to use vs archers, why they should buff cataprhacts vs them too?
Yeah except that by the time you got a castle up and you start training them you enemy will already have more knights that the GC you need to counter them, and he keep up the production with stables, so it can triple you production at least, but here we are getting off topic.
I wasnāt comparing, I just listed the UU with a longer TT.
not to mention Ethiopian camels are just trash vs paladin+arb combo
Too fragile for their high costs, If Leitis are considered glass cannon despite being tankier against non-halb/camel combo, catas feel far worse and power crept. Not to mention Leitis have significantly lower upgrade costs and gold cost and are powerful against everything
Well its not like pikemen are that worse, and Italians have FU monks. If anything they should nerf chu ko nu creation time which is atrocious compared to their damage and unit cost
Yes but they can simply avoit fights that they donāt want being a cavalry unit, and then support them with other units like ES or siege.
I mean, SR, ES and catas is a push with little to none weaknesses.
Yes, Iām not saying that italians are completely defenseless, but if you want to use their UU for the only thing that they can do (which is counter cavalry, otherwise there is no point on choosing GC over arbs) having a TT that long discourage anyone to use them.
If I have to use pikes I would be better of with standard xbows than GC.