yeah but how bad does halbs and camels wreck all those?
meanwhile Cataphracts laugh at halbs and especially at camels.
I did this comparison to show, that adding 1PA to Cata can make hin a little more resistant, but not change much in comparison to Paladin.
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got you. im not opposed to adding 1 pierce, i just think making Elite more affordable is a better option.
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Byz are really well rounded. With one of the most unique playstyle. The main thing they need is a reduction on the costs of FU cata. Better reducing the elite upgrade cost of 400fâŠ
This is a good idea imo, despiteit is not a priority. It encourages going catas over palas. Another option is cost reducing of cata, but I still prefer extra PA. Also a small reduction in TT may work if catas should become go to units (and a unit with so high upgrade costs should be).
This is very true, that unit in the closet one to be OP.
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U just Keep saying cataphract are good because they can kill halbs and camels, but in the real situation is normally other player already mass halbs or camels with fully upgraded, but u only got few cataphract without elite upgrade and unique tech.
And then they just destroyed Byzantine player who try so hard to build up cataphract army.
Both Leitis and Konnik are seing as weak to the archers, but they still have more PA than Cataphract, as well as faster TT and they are cheaper. Leitis is also cheaper to upgrade, and Konnik is easier, because probably in imp player will lack only Imp BL upgrades and Elite upgrade.
Of course every unit need weakness, but Cata has many - is hard to mass, is expensive to make and upgrade, is weak to Archers, has medicore stats. Is worth his price, sure, but is not go-to unit.
Elite Upgrade cost reduction is almost nesessery. -400 or 500F and will be comparable to other similar units.
Price reduction - not at all. Maybe just -5G.
TT should be lower as well. Cata now has almost the same TT as Camel from stable, what is⊠wierd.
BTW, in situation when both players go Camels, after making 20 of them, Byz player has resources to make additional 3 Catas and he still save some. Also need make 200 Camels to save enough food to make Elite Cata+Logistica.
Also other thing.
Why Byz dont have Heavy Scorpion? This is very good defensive unit.
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You canât give it +1 PA it is against the unit weakness, it should do decent in melee combats and they used to be really decent until the new units and civs were introduced since forgotten empires, no one is going to say they were weak back at AoC because even vs paladin they could win from time to time, so it was well rounded an unit capable of demolish halbs and still put a good fight vs other mounted units, they could kill archs with good micro as well, but only after logistic which considered its price and elite upgrade it would be dumb to lose vs 45 arbs after you invested more resources than upgrading SO.
Cataphract canât be compared to konnik or leitis, because they have different weakness and strengths, cata was always considered a champion in a horse, but in terms of price byzantines got nerfed, keeping the high price while new civs have access to stronger units at a cheaper price.
If you only decrease the cost of logisitic and elite upgrade, that wouldnât make the civ more usable.
If you give +1 PA it wouldnât change anything.
If you give both of them that also wouldnât make the civ more usable, because of the same reason we donât see boyards and keshiks a lot, because those civs have better units that can keep upgrading since castle age.
The civ doesnât need siege engineers or heavy scorpion, they just need to be adjusted to the new balance, the best way being practical is to give them bloodlines, you will deftly boost them for team games and would give them a new option for 1x1, for 1x1 byzantines are just an arbalest civ, and before saying you canât give them bloodlines because arbalest+paladin is GG, then why Magyars arenât the best civ right now? or donât say donât give them bloodlines because their camels would be unstoppable, 5% cheaper camels than berber camel without blast furnace wouldnât be OP.
If they get bloodlines they should lose something on their tec tree, the most logical thing to lose would be heavy cav archer and a reduction of the HP base of the cataphracts, like i suggested if you only reduce their HP by 10 hitpoints after bloodlines they would end with +10 HP, after that boost i wouldnât mind paying the high price for the upgrades.
If there are more topics about byzantines a small change might happen, but maybe not the expected or what the civ really needs, when i said they could expand the logistic effect to their cavalry line i was trying to anticipate them, now i think they could give the +PA to their cavalry line, as it was suggested for teutons, but a paladin with 8 pierce armor despite missing bloodlines and BF it would be fast, tankier and deadly for raids.
but whats the point of a cavalry unit thatâs not weak to halbs but still loses to classic halb+arb combo? If you pay for all that and castles but still donât get a great unit out of it, whatâs the point.
Thats why they should at least reduce the cost of elite cataphract.
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I guess I can settle on that but even then itâs still a unit that demands 4000+ resources of upgrades and multiple castles and is still a unit that gets countered by three types of units: ranged units, heavy cavalry and monks
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Maybe in term of Leitis I agree, Leitis has role more similar to Camel, I always see this as Camel substitut for Lthuanians because they are West-european Civ and cannot have access to Camel. Still is the Cav UU, and share the same charcteristic like all of them.
But Konnik, this is different story. Is similar to Cata in many ways - Is cavalry what can stand against standars cav counters and win. Konnik kill Camels, and do better than other Cav (exept Cata) against Halbs. Unlike Cata, is alone strong enough to be in par with Paladin. Practicly, is Cata+Pala. Is also much easier to mass than Cata, in fact, is second easiest to mass cav UU (after Tarkan) and one of the easiest to mass UU in general.
And yes, adding +1 PA change things. Now Cata take 2dmg from ESkirm! The Trash Unit! How can he be the trash-killer (champion on horse, as you call him) when even Skirms can damage him so badly! every other Heavy Cav take 1 dmg from Skirms.
One of the reason of Cata being good is he forced oponent to go gold units to take him down. But when is counter partialy even by Skirms, so standard trash combo can stop him. And this is not very good for Cata.
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what about 400 food cost reduction, +1 PA? 1 more PA isnât going to make it an absolute tank against archers, but its still better then before.
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+1 PA and Cata will be as durable to Archers as Leitis is - can take 38 shots. Leitis is seing as weak to archers and is still better than Cata in this.
Konnik is also seing as weak to archers, but can take 45 shots (or 35+10 being more specific) - only 9 less than Elite Keshik or Byz Pala. And more than FU Cavalier or Celt Pala.
the difference is the cata takes half damage from halbs, only 6 bonus damage from pikes(not to mention the absurd damage they do to both), and all but negates camels.
so in most respects the cata is more durable. whereas the Leits is anti heavy armored unit, and the Cata is anti Infantry.
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Cata is more durable only against anti-cav. In other aspects Cata and Leitis have the same theoretical durability - the same HP and MA, but Cata deal much less damage (14dmg with RoF 1,7, when Leitis 18dmg with RoF 1,9, without Relics), so is longer exposed - overall Leitis is more durable.
except the cataphract isnât weak to camels and pikes like the leitis is, and the cataphract train wrecks infantry harder.
so against infantry and camels, the cataphract is superior.
against archers they wash. (assuming cataphracts get +1 PA)
against all other cavalry the leitis is superior.
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Agree. Because catas are meant to counter infantry, i thinkâŠ
They have discounted skirms for archers, discounted camels and halbs for cavalry, catas for cavalry and greek fire galleys for war galleys.
Even their buildings âcounterâ the siege.
So maybe devs thought heavy scorpion is not needed, which is a pitty.
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Food for thought, Cataphracts literally wreck any Melee Infantry harder then Leitis does.
Elite Leitis does 18 damage (with all upgrades) + 4 assuming you get 4 relics. for 22 damage.
against ETK that is 22 damage per hit, at 1.9 speed, 5 hits to kill.
the Elite Cataphract does
14 damage - 14 + 12 bonus damage from EC +6 bonus damage from Logistica + 5 Trample Damage to everything around it for a total of 12+6+5 =23 damage @ 1.7 speed. also 5 hits to kill. but during those 5 hits hes doing 25 damage to everything around, and he does them 1 second faster (1.9-1.7 = .2 *5 hits).
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People donât go for Cav Archers when they donât get Bloodlines. At least, Iâve not seen it.
Missing that tech is akin to just not having Cav Archers in practice.
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Heavy Camel deal 8dmg to Cata, need 19 hits to kill him. Deal 24dmg to Leitis, need 7 hits.
Cata deal 11dmg to HCamel, need 13hits to kill him (less with trample).
Leitis deal 18dmg to HCamel, need 8 hits to kill him. After 2 relics deal 20 and need 7 hits.
Cata is of course superior here, but Leitis isnt as weak to HCamel as other cav. Even can win 1v1 with just 2 relics, because of larger RoF.
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