Champion-Line Buff

+1-2 melee armor, +1 pierce armor, +10 hp
Starting from the 2 handed-swordsman upgrade

This will increase the viability of the slower infantry unit vs other melee units and slightly vs ranged units.


Do you do any analysis of the changes you propose?

This will obviously break any champion with a buff already and there’s a lot. Aztecs, Burmese, Japanese, malians, teutons, etc.


hey guys, a lot of people already think supplies helps 2hs/champs invalidate a lot of infantry unique units as is due to how cheap they are, let’s make that issue even worse.

furthermore - this would mean that Teuton Champions (even assuming only 1 melee armor buff) would have 7 melee armor. Malian Champs would have 9 PA (meaning the damage arbs do vs them is HALVED). and between the two changes a normal champion would have 6 PA, taking 4 damage from an Arb, and require 20 shots to die, an increase of 6 shots (from 14), for almost a 50% increase in survival vs archers. that is more then a “slight increase” in viability vs ranged units.
besides, 2HS/Champions don’t really need buffs (other then maybe being a little bit cheaper/faster to tech into).

not to mention what it also does for Japanese, Vikings, Burmese, and other such champions,


I do agree that we need a long-swordsman, two-handed swordsman and champion buff, but we also need a buff to some of the infantry UUs. However these balance changes are nonsense.


the only change i think THS and Champ need at this time is faster teching too, and maybe make it a little bit cheaper overall. LS is hard to buff just because i don’t think you can do much that would make them actually useful, short of breaking them.


Agree, but they also need minor HP buff. And of course supplies needs a huge buff (cheaper and less research time). Same for Long swordsmen, but the most important is:
Decrease attack animation by a lot, so they will actually catch up to moving archers after hitting them much faster

Note that crossbows and knights should still kill only long swords, however longswords +pikes/skirmishers could actually be a legit tactic

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i don’t know about HP, depends how minor you’re talking.

that goes without saying.

i don’t think this will matter much as in my experience, champs are rarely going to catch archers in the first play.

eh, LS + skirms won’t ever be a legit tactic against archers because they can’t realistically catch them. they might make a good meat shield for the skirms but at that point why not just use pikes as the meat shield?

I just don’t see any realistic way to make LS compete with knights and Crossbows that don’t involve radical design changes to the game.

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The difference between only skirms play and skirms + LS is that you can actually attack with the second option, with the first youre forced to defend. However when longswords are so fckin bad (only good at hitting buildings), this tactic is just nonexistent. Thats why we need to make LS better vs archers (but not so much, so only archers will still win against only LS)

and obviously supplies and techs cheaper so its easier to tech into

I dont want them to compete with those. Only LS tactic cannot exists, simply because if it would exist it would be broken cuz no trash counters. However LS+trash tactic SHOULD exist, bringing another dimension for castle age play (currently its quite boring)

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true but the LS aren’t going to be able to do much against the archers. yeah they can deal decently with most other things, but useless against the archers themselves.

faster attack animation isn’t going to do crap for them against archers though, due to them not even being able to get to archers.

what if we just give ls +10 hp and buff arson +1 ?


then we would need to buff 2hs and champion HP as well. also thats a huge jump in HP, man at arms 45. LS 70.

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in hinsight i think if it should be spread then i would suggest 5 for ls 10 for 2hs and 15 for Champs

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I’d suggest also increasing their speed to match the one of the light cavs, increasing their damage to the level of a lith paladin with 4 relics and increasing their attack speed to match the one of the cobra car

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don’t forget to give them the melee armor of an Elite TK, and the PA of a Huskarl for good measure.

i was actually serious not sure if you mocking me or Nheltarion

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I would also add +20 HP and splash damage so as a slow melee unit, they are more viable. 11

And the health of a war eles. That way they would finally see play!

To add this change towards quality I’d be willing to increase the gold cost from 20 to 30-50 depending on balance

What’s the point of these changes if you make everything stronger but more expensive? We have enough pop-efficient units so their is no need for more, if everything becomes more expensive then getting an army out in the first place becomes needlessly slow.