Chinese is weak!

Age of Empires III: DE III - Discussion
47

I totally agree, after playing over 100 ranked 1v1 with China.

The biggest problem with me that they are sooooooooooooooooooo one dimensional. You absolutely HAVE TO GO TO FORTRESS, or your just die a slow and painful death.

The balance team should really give China a realistic way to boom and also a reasonable way to punish a boom from the opponent.

Here are some of my ideas:

  1. Give them 400 starting wood, and 200 export at the start.
  2. Change the Russian consulate effect to maybe -10% vill cost and -10% build time.
  3. Change the stats of Steppe Raider from 15 base 2* infantry to 20 base, 1.5* infantry, and the same kind of change for Iron Flail. Basically buff the base damage of the cavs and reduce the multipliers against infantry so they wonā€™t completely destroy skirmishers. I donā€™t think I have to say too much about this, but man, Steppe Raiders and Iron Flails are the worst cavs in the entire game. They do a somewhat ok job against skirms, but will be destroyed by almost everything else. Part of it I think is because of very low base damage. Give it a buff and make them a bit better against other cavs.
  4. Move the Mongolian Scourge buff to Keshiks into Repealing Volley, and also grant them +10% damage. Mongolian Scourge is just a awkward card to sent in most situations. Iā€™d rather have cav combat and siege damage in separate cards.
  5. Make some adjustments to flamethrowers. They cost like half a falc but are not as effective. 2 flamethrowers card in fortress is dogshit. At least it should be 4 flamethrowers or 2 infinite.
2 Likes
48

Nice idea! Iron Flails are constantly being brought up as being terrible, because their cost isnā€™t justified for what they offer. Having low base damage is whats killing them. Same with Steppe Riders. Part of why China is so terrible in Age 2 is that they just have no good cav unit. Steppe Riders are obviously not made for direct fights. But changing their base damage and adjusting the multiplier sounds like a great solution. China also has a card for +15% HP on Chuko Nu and Steppe Rider, but that card is not being used because you would never send it in Age 2, since China either goes Age 3 or dies.

You still have the issue that in Age 3 you definately donā€™t want to build Steppe Riders over Meteor Hammers. However upgrading Steppe Riders is only half the cost of a normal unit upgrade so it could still be worth it to upgrade them if you have a lot of them remaining.

The more I think about this, the more I love this idea. Iā€™m not so sure about your other suggestions. But I think this one should be tested by the balance team!

Another option would be to change the German consulate by making it possible to get the 1.25 Wood trickle in Age 2. Currently you have the option of getting a 1.5 food trickle in Age 2, a Wood Trickle in Age 3 and a Coin trickle in Age 4.

The go-to Consulate for China is the British Consulate because of Redcoats and more HP on their units. However, if you wanted to play a longer game in Age 2, then having the option to go for German consulate, having cheaper food costs on armies, Food + Wood trickle does sound like a great option! Currently China is just terrible at a prolonged game in Age 2 and this would be a solution to give them just a bit more variety in builds, which is what they lack completely.

49

Other suggestions are just some rough ideas. Those are just my attempt to give China a way to boom its economy. Because China relies so heavily on fast fortress, I wonder if this change in consulate would give it more options. Because even if they buff Chinaā€™s cav and anti cav, the civ still feels a bit one dimensional in terms of strategy. You still have to fortress, and your economy still cannot afford a heavier age 2 play.

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50

And,Japanese 500 food and 300 wood starting.Chinese?200 Food,300 Wood?Could you tell me itā€™s joke?

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51

Considering Japs villager will not idle and their monk build shrine, I canā€™t find any reason why japs need to start with 500f and 300w and they also get 1 orchard or 2 if the map didnā€™t have berry while other civs starting crate is 500-600 in total. I say reduce it to 400f 200w or 300f 200w 100c.

1 Like
52

I mean, having hung around the ESO Community for a while, China isnā€™t weak, and like LEOLEEX711 said, the problem with China is that itā€™s mono-dimensional. The optimum strategy tends to congregate toward the ā€œFF / Semiā€ meta, and anything other than that gets you killed.

That said, there are a few things China can do to fix its econ in Colonial, not that itā€™s really worth it.

First, White Pagoda can be treated as an economic wonder (on some maps) if you consider the free Disciples can allow a monk to take high-end treasures early. That can easily get you 1-2 shipments worth of XP, but it depends on whether the map has high-end treasures.

Second, Russian Consulate gives you 10% faster villager times. This is roughly the Russian economic boost, except that the shipments you get from the Russian Consulate are pretty bad.

Thereā€™s a couple of other ideas, but these are the two that work (sometimes). Iā€™ve also tried going to Commerce early, and then sending in the villager card once I have multiple villages, but letā€™s be realistic. It doesnā€™t work. Boxer Rebellion / Village Defense rushes donā€™t work either, well, sometimes they do, but mainly because the opponent has no idea what theyā€™re facing.

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Basically, the history of China in AOE3 is that China started out with a really overpowered Colonial Age (now known as Commerce Age), and ESO dumped the nerf bat hard on Chinese Colonial. They compensated by adjusting Summer Palace to encourage Chinese FF, and thatā€™s what the meta is now. At the time, Disciples were really overpowered and so was the Monk. Lots of things were broken with Chinese Colonial, they addressed everything at once, and bam, China is now a FF civ.

1 Like
53

I thought you were crazy after reading this originally. I now agree with you 100%. Your wood crate from start can be used for market upgrades and help to conserve your first village till second age. Or even start tp, which would buff china to above average. Not a bad idea at all.

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54

You could make the Trickle from German Consulate cheaper (food and wood), so that China could use that export along with the cheaper armies, to hold on colonial age.

3 Likes
55

This is a good suggestion. I have suggested something similar to buff Chinaā€™s bad age 2. Move the wood trickle from German consulate from Age 3 to Age 2 and move the Coin Trickle from German consulate from Age 4 to Age 3. With French Consulate, China can send all ressource crates by Age 3, but in Age 2 you can only unlock a food trickle from German consulate.

This could synergize a lot better with good faith agreements, which is currently not a viable option in 1v1, because China is simply too slow to hit Age 2 and with bad economy.

2 Likes
56

There are plenty of posts on how to fix China and yet, the developers havenā€™t implemented any of them. I know they say they are listening, but I donā€™t wanna be left with a bad taste in my mouth once again if they are not buffed in the next patch.

2 Likes
57

I agree with you more

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58

Moving the trickles down by one Age was a step in the right direction, but I really feel like devs just called it a day with it and the not very useful New Army change ( Beiyang Army viability was a nice addition). Here are some main points that could be addressed:

  1. Flamethrowers need more speed and hopefully less pop and resource cost.
  2. Mandarin duck squad costs 500f, sends 8 chu ko nu + 1 flamethrower while Swedes can send 2 leather canon for only 150fā€¦ what?
  3. Sumptuary laws card desperately needs a buff to become viable. This could open many opportunities for all Asian civs. Not only does it provide a very few amount of resources but it is also weakercompared to other trickles because the income is spread through all resources; so there should be some kind of counter-balance. Right now even getting a trickle treasure is better than this card.
  4. White Pagoda is a terrible Age II wonder (or in supremacy) and disciples underperform in comparison to other units with a similar role, even after hugely investing on their upgrades. Even giving them a anticav multiplier once you get White Pagoda could help. More ideas and analysis on this What's the Worst early game unit? (and how to fix them)
  5. China is by far the slowest civ to Age up to Age II. @AussieDrongoBBQ proposed giving them 50f initial crate and I think thatā€™s a good proposal.
  6. Chinese upgrade cards are too specialized and do not affect mercenary units, outlaws, natives, etc at all (except for western reforms in Age IV with 8%). This is not the case with many other civs. Asian civs still canā€™t access Imperial Age mercenaries if they choose to either.
  7. Why can only Japan out of the Asian civs have an option to sacrifice part of their standard economy to get a viable-playable amount of export if they choose to send a card? Here are some proposals and analysis Seeing how Influence works, should Export have viable means that makes it a reliable resource income if you invest on it?
  8. China is the only civ in the game without viable means of obtaining alternative XP income without TP, and I prefer not to count Porcelain tower and Sumptuary Laws since itā€™s pretty much like 10x less than what any other civ can get.
  9. Summer Palace canā€™t produce all banner armies.
2 Likes
59

Yes,I agree with you more!

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60

I agree ,
China is weak
need buff.

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61

Example , for pro player.
African Championship of AOE3! - Mitoe vs Ezad - QF Bo5 !casters !rules !socials

Aizamk

Lukas_L99 , n0eL ,

I know , how to play china,

I say Developer(Balance patch)
China is weak age up 2 very slow
lose vs cavalry musk and rush.
example for pro player .
at more tournament pro player play china lose 60-75,80%

1 Like