Civ bonuses if the next patch was made by me

[ElizaKolmakov]

Nobody from the devs reads these anyway, so might as well post my thoughts for fun:

Aztecs:

• Military units no longer created 11% faster.
• Garland Wars changed from 450f 750g to 750f 450g.
  I don’t think aztecs are that good, but since everyone seems to think so, there you have it, the faster producing units are gone. Also it’s nonsensical for a UT to cost so much gold and so little food, especially considering how gold-heavy the aztec composition is to begin with.

Berbers

• No changes

Bohemians

• Skirmishers also deal +25% bonus damage.
  Bohemians will always struggle against archer and in particular cavalry archer civs due to their poor cavalry and siege (the latter until imp), and even in imp they get destroyed by tatars/magyars/mongols.

Bulgarians

• Konnik rate of fire reduced from 2.4 to 2.
  It’s an alright civ, but konniks are too bad ever since the big post release nerfs. This should make them more consistent with other cavalry too, 2.4 attack speed is ridiculous.

Burgundians

• Burgundian Vineyards tech effect increased by 50%, cost increased by 200f to 600f 300g.
• Economic upgrades are 25% cheaper on the food, not 50%.
  Post imp burgundians are straight up bad, only FU unit is halberdier. Vineyards are nice, but too slow to pay off, especially the gold cost. And the economy is too strong with too little investment.
  Flemish revolution idk what to do about, it’s just a tough to balance tech.

Burmese

• Manipur cavalry (cavalry +5 attack vs archers) is now the castle age UT
• Howdah (Battle elephant becomes siege ram) is now the imp UT
• Siege workshop units cost -25% gold. (kinda Nili’s suggestion)
  The UTs are self explanatory, Burmese struggle against archers in late castle and early imp, not in late imp. The siege thing is idk, they just need some bonus to their military in the castle age.

Byzantines

• Greek fire adds +1 damage to all ranged units and buildings (like a chemistry). Cost increased from 250f 300g to 450f 300g.
  They just need a better military that’s all. The devs don’t want them to have an eco bonus and that’s ok, but with a worse than usual military it’s just not going to work. If they have good backline units to dish out damage while their trash is cannon fodder on the front, I think they will find a lot more success.

Celts

• No changes

Chinese

• Technologies now cost -5% in feudal, -10% in castle, -15% in imp.
  There have been suggestions to reduce the starting vils count, but chinese are supposed to be a “tough to master” civ anyway, so maybe with gradual nerfs to everything else they have they will become more reasonable on open maps. On closed maps I’d argue they actually need buffs, I’d sprinkle in a siege engineers, but maybe it will be too much.

Cumans

• Removed SWS and rams in feudal (bad idea to begin with, only good for cheese on BF/arena/hideout).
• Second TC builds in 200 seconds (down from 275 (the standard is 150 seconds))
  The second TC is nice but sees too little play in 1v1s because of how long it takes to pay off, reducing the time to construct should make it easier to go for that strat, while not impacting the rest of their options. On closed maps there already are better booming civs (Khmer, Celts, Slavs to name a few)

Ethiopians

• Also receive +100 wood when advancing.
  This is to make it easier to add a blacksmith/university and actually make use of the powerspikes you are supposed to get, ethiopians largely are overrated.

Franks

• Berry bonus removed (yep, you saw that right)
  They will have a more than solid win% without the 15% faster working foragers, I can assure you of that.

Goths

• +10 population in imperial age changed to +10 population available.
  Should help their opening and early game options by saving that 50 wood and few seconds of early worker efficiency, we will see some creative strats, and it won’t push them over the top when it comes to their lategame capabilities.

Huns

• No changes

Incas

• Andean Sling increases skirmisher and slinger fire rate by 33% as well.
• Team bonus now is “Units move 10% faster while on farms”.
  The UT is atrocious for it’s price and does basically nothing compared to the aztec and mayan UTs.
  And the farm thing is a slight eco and defensive bonus to let them get to their castle age options easier.

Indians

• Shatagni also increases hand cannon accuracy to 100% (the old tech effect).
• Villagers now cost -5%, -10%, -15%, -20% in dark/feudal/castle/imp.
  Indians have been overperforming for a while now (known not just thanks to the SOTL video), the villager discount should be toned down a bit to make them a bit slower in their age ups and boom.
  And the shatagni change is… everyone likes hand cannons!

Italians

• Elite genoese crossbow +1 attack, +1 pierce armor (Elite Genoese Crossbows)
• Advancing to the next age costs -20%
  Self explanatory, elite genbows are basically non elite genbows, and the cheaper age ups are nice, but could use some more.

Japanese

• Kataparuto also affects onagers (fire 33% faster, they don’t get SO so it’s reasonable)
  Great tech, very underused though due to… simply getting 3 trebs out being better. Should help with the poor lategame performance of japan, especially against archer and cav archer civs.

Khmer

• Base farming speed reduced by 5%, the post-hand cart rate kept the same. ( 2021 Annual Farming Update - Now featuring Burgundians & Sicilians! (AoE2) - YouTube)
• Elite ballista elephant +1 attack, +1 range, +1 pierce armor, cost increased from 1000f 500g to 1000f 750g (final FU stats- 11 damage, 7 range, 8 pierce armor, compare it to an elephant archer and you will see it’s rather reasonable)
  Khmer are an ok civ, but they have no good backline unit to supplement their hussars with, and ballista eles are too bad for their FU upgrade cost, with double crossbow and the elite upgrade. Ballista ele stacks aren’t even dangerous on BF because of how hard they die to siege onagers and how clunky they are.
  As for the farming, it’s supposed to be a quality of life buff, not the best farming eco bonus in the game. Please.

Koreans

• Free archer armors removed.
• Archery range units +1 pierce armor.
• Archery range upgrades cost -20%.
• War Wagon bonus damage against buildings removed.
  Decent civ, war wagons are too oppressive early castle age though, as ranged units deal too little damage to them and they trade even against elite skirmishers. The armor and bonus upgrades should ensure they can’t be used to wipe someone off the map in TGs with just WWs.

Lithuanians

• Tower shields also adds +1 melee armor (their halbs are just trash now, without blast furnace and last armor)

Magyars

• Huntables and Herdables don’t rot.
  Small early game eco bonus to help out with the food aspect of the civ, as both of their preferred openings are just outclassed by civs with better bonuses for them.

Malay

• Advancing to the next age happens twice as fast (from 66%).
  I mean, that’s the only bonus that the civ has for the majority of games, might as well double down on it. An argument could be made that FI will be too strong with it, but we will see.

Malians

• The buildings cost -15% bonus now also applies to farms.
  Was removed because back then malians had quite a lot, free gold shaft mining, had halberdier, gbetos were better. Now with the removed free gold mining they struggle early game a bit, so the discount applying to farms again is natural.

Mayans

• Resources no longer last longer.
  Sorry, it’s too strong. MAA without deer, drush FC with only 2 farms, practically don’t need horse collar, can sit on their main gold without branching out until imp with the archer discount.

Mongols

• No changes

Persians

• Mahouts (30% faster war elephants) removed.
• Elite WE now have 0.8 base speed, from 0.6.
• Land military units now produce 15% faster (old aztec bonus).
  Persians largely struggle on all non-hybrid maps due to how open in theory their tech tree is, but how little options they actually have. If they can mass more units, from all buildings, they should be able to go for their multiple options more freely.

Poles

• Gain access to last archer armor, halberdier.
• Szlachta Privileges now makes knights cost -33% food and gold instead of -60% gold.
• Light cavalry deals trample damage by default (not scouts, light cavalry, like mongols).
• Lechitic legacy new effect- cavalry units regenerate (same speed as berber camels, 30hp/min)
  They still die to archer masses, and especially cavalry archer masses, so that’s what the last archer armor is for. Szlachta Privileges knights are waay too strong, and the cavaliers are… way too weak, without the last armor. The tech honestly is better fit for a gradual effect, like -30% in castle, -60% in imp, but that’s not how techs work anyway. It’s just tough to balance this whole thing, but we do know that poles need nerfs in some aspects and buffs in other aspects.

Portuguese

• Feitorias now occupy 3x3 space, cost -50% (125g 125s), HP is now 1500/1800/2100 in feudal/castle/imp. Build time unchanged (120 seconds). Available in the feudal age. New resource generation- 0.4f, 0.25w, 0.2g, 0.1s per second (It currently is 1.6f, 1w, 0.7g, 0.3s).
• Carrack now also doubles feitoria resource generation speed.
  Portuguese don’t need a buff, they need a rework. An economical one. It’s also a reasonable change historically- Carrack - Wikipedia Carracks were trading ships, not military ones.
  How this will impact the meta, well, let’s see.

Saracens

• Monks and siege units now return 33% of their cost when killed.
• Madrasah removed.
• New tech- Grazing- 400f 200g, Cavalry and camel units generate gold at a speed of 1/20th of a relic. 60 cavalry units on the field is the same as having 3 relics.
  Fun low eco civ to play, and probably should stay that way. Monk UTs are bad, end of discussion, and they need a bit of help to afford their gold-heavy composition in post imp anyway.

Sicilians

• No changes
  Or at least I can’t think of any reasonable changes to a civ that some say is bad, some say its OP.

Slavs

• Monks +3/+3 armor as a civ bonus.
• Barracks techs free (supplies, squires, arson).
• Orthodoxy effect and price changed: 600 food, 500 gold. Barracks and stable units +15% HP.
  Underperforming and underused cavalry civ that in theory has the potential to compete with the top dogs, just not until it has better than average cavalier. Their infantry already is amazing, but we don’t see infantry enough, so I’m not sure how this will impact their infantry play. Also, it would require quite a lot of resources to fully upgrade, so it shouldn’t be something we see in 1v1s. These changes are primarily aimed at TGs, while the monk change is aimed at 1v1.

Spanish

• Barracks, stable techs no longer cost gold (bloodlines, supplies, arson).
• Monks convert faster as civ bonus.
• New castle age UT- idk what name- units cost -15% food (including villagers).
  Saw this idea somewhere on the forum, the bloodlines change should make for some interesting feudal play, and the barracks thing is just to make it a bit more global, as just bloodlines doesn’t cost gold is a bit too small. The monks thing is to keep the inquisition part, and the new UT is aimed at aiming their boom and lategame military options (all of them use food), while not being too strong earlygame, as it would be if it was a civ bonus.

Tatars

• No changes
  They seem fine honestly

Teutons

• No changes
  Teutons have been buffed a lot and have their spot in the 1v1 and TG meta, they hard counter some civs and die to others, but overall their open tech tree and good eco enables them to go for a lot of strategies.

Turks

• Removed gunpowder technologies cost -50% (it’s only relevant for BBT now anyway, and Turk BBT are notorious for being extremely obnoxious, slowing down the progression there won’t hurt them too much).
• Gold miners work 25% faster.
  Turks probably need something else as well, but they are in a good spot in TGs, maybe even too good. Their post imp with huss/CA BBT BBC is strong in many situations, as is their fast imp, but their earlygame lacks behind. Idk how to make them more viable in 1v1.

Vietnamese

• Conscription free from castle age onwards.
• Paper money removed.
• New imp UT: Lumberjacks no longer need to drop off resources.

Vikings

• No changes
  Their current state is fine

That should cover all the civs, post comments or your takes on the current civ balance

[MatCauthon3]

@ElizaKolmakov

Economic upgrades are 25% cheaper on the food, not 50%.

This is unnecessary if you ask me.

@ElizaKolmakov

Greek fire adds +1 damage to all ranged units and buildings (like a chemistry). Cost increased from 250f 300g to 450f 300g

That’s a huge buff and unnecessary imho.

@ElizaKolmakov

Berry bonus removed (yep, you saw that right)
They will have a more than solid win% without the 15% faster working foragers, I can assure you of that

I’d rather go after the feudal hp bonus.

@ElizaKolmakov

Advancing to the next age costs -20%
Self explanatory, elite genbows are basically non elite genbows, and the cheaper age ups are nice, but could use some more

Do we really need to buff Italians on water?

@ElizaKolmakov

As for the farming, it’s supposed to be a quality of life buff, not the best farming eco bonus in the game. Please

Ugh civ bonus are supposed to provide advantages not just qol.

@ElizaKolmakov

Lithuanians

• Tower shields also adds +1 melee armor (their halbs are just trash now, without blast furnace and last armor

Lith are fine and need no buffs.

@ElizaKolmakov

Malians

• The buildings cost -15% bonus now also applies to farms.
  Was removed because back then malians had quite a lot, free gold shaft mining, had halberdier, gbetos were better. Now with the removed free gold mining they struggle early game a bit, so the discount applying to farms again is natural

Malians don’t meed buffs either.

@ElizaKolmakov

Mayans

• Resources no longer last longer.
  Sorry, it’s too strong. MAA without deer, drush FC with only 2 farms, practically don’t need horse collar, can sit on their main gold without branching out until imp with the archer discount

And now their late game is utterly trash.

@ElizaKolmakov

Land military units now produce 15% faster (old aztec bonus).
Persians largely struggle on all non-hybrid maps due to how open in theory their tech tree is, but how little options they actually have. If they can mass more units, from all buildings, they should be able to go for their multiple options more freely

Completely busted.

@ElizaKolmakov

• Szlachta Privileges now makes knights cost -33% food and gold instead of -60% gold.
• Light cavalry deals trample damage by default (not scouts, light cavalry, like mongols).
• Lechitic legacy new effect- cavalry units regenerate (same speed as berber camels, 30hp/min)
  They still die to archer masses, and especially cavalry archer masses, so that’s what the last archer armor is for. Szlachta Privileges knights are waay too strong, and the cavaliers are… way too weak, without the last armor. The tech honestly is better fit for a gradual effect, like -30% in castle, -60% in imp, but that’s not how techs work anyway. It’s just tough to balance this whole thing, but we do know that poles need nerfs in some aspects and buffs in other aspects

This is a massive overbuff.

Don’t have time to hit the rest.
Way to many changes and way too much over-compensatimg one way or another

[xXxVladMasterxD]

@ElizaKolmakov

Orthodoxy effect and price changed: 600 food, 500 gold. Barracks and stable units +15% HP.

Crazy idea. What if we make the tech Orthodoxy make knights and boyars more resistant to conversions and gives them 5 bonus damage to monks. That sounds cool.

I know how to make their cav unique. Make it so their stable units benefit from arson.

[TheConqueror753]

I disagree with pretty much all of these, but I’ll go through it anyway:

@ElizaKolmakov

Aztecs:

• Military units no longer created 11% faster.
• Garland Wars changed from 450f 750g to 750f 450g.

Aztecs aren’t made good because of the faster producing military so much. They are more made good because of the eco, as with a lot, if not all, of the standard S tier civs.

@ElizaKolmakov

Bohemians

• Skirmishers also deal +25% bonus damage.
  Bohemians will always struggle against archer and in particular cavalry archer civs due to their poor cavalry and siege (the latter until imp), and even in imp they get destroyed by tatars/magyars/mongols.

I’m sorry, have you seen the Hussite Wagon? It has insane pierce armor, blocks projectile attacks, and has really good damage. It’s super punishing towards archer civs. Bohemians will also often play archers, and with the chemistry in Castle Age, they have a higher damage output than most other archer civs can get.

@ElizaKolmakov

Bulgarians

• Konnik rate of fire reduced from 2.4 to 2.
  It’s an alright civ, but konniks are too bad ever since the big post release nerfs. This should make them more consistent with other cavalry too, 2.4 attack speed is ridiculous.

Stirrups is meant to do improve that. I guess you could go from 2.4 to 2.3, but all the way down to 2 is too much, especially post Stirrups.

@ElizaKolmakov

Burgundians

• Burgundian Vineyards tech effect increased by 50%, cost increased by 200f to 600f 300g.
• Economic upgrades are 25% cheaper on the food, not 50%.
  Post imp burgundians are straight up bad, only FU unit is halberdier. Vineyards are nice, but too slow to pay off, especially the gold cost. And the economy is too strong with too little investment.
  Flemish revolution idk what to do about, it’s just a tough to balance tech.

The whole idea is that you are meant to have good eco in the early game, with powerspikes particularly prominent in Castle Age, but then a lot of it falls off in Imp. Burgundians would be overnerfed with this. If Vineyards is getting changes, it really should go from food and gold, to food and wood, like most of the other techs with a bonus to gold, ie. Sultans. Burgundians are an OK civ right now, and don’t really need nerfs like this.

@ElizaKolmakov

Burmese

• Manipur cavalry (cavalry +5 attack vs archers) is now the castle age UT
• Howdah (Battle elephant becomes siege ram) is now the imp UT
• Siege workshop units cost -25% gold. (kinda Nili’s suggestion)
  The UTs are self explanatory, Burmese struggle against archers in late castle and early imp, not in late imp. The siege thing is idk, they just need some bonus to their military in the castle age.

I think swapping the techs could be an option. Instead of the siege thing, I would rather have it that cavalry deal +1/+3/+5 damage to buildings in Feudal/Castle/Imperial, and Arambai deal +1/+3 in Castle/Imperial. This way, they can deal with archers using the new Manipur Cavalry, but retain the base destroying spirit of the old version as well, but it is weaker until they reach Imp.

@ElizaKolmakov

Byzantines

• Greek fire adds +1 damage to all ranged units and buildings (like a chemistry). Cost increased from 250f 300g to 450f 300g.
  They just need a better military that’s all. The devs don’t want them to have an eco bonus and that’s ok, but with a worse than usual military it’s just not going to work. If they have good backline units to dish out damage while their trash is cannon fodder on the front, I think they will find a lot more success.

It could always enable flamethrowers, or make all units deal bonus damage against buildings in exchange for a cost increase.

@ElizaKolmakov

Chinese

• Technologies now cost -5% in feudal, -10% in castle, -15% in imp.
  There have been suggestions to reduce the starting vils count, but chinese are supposed to be a “tough to master” civ anyway, so maybe with gradual nerfs to everything else they have they will become more reasonable on open maps. On closed maps I’d argue they actually need buffs, I’d sprinkle in a siege engineers, but maybe it will be too much.

Chinese are kind of hard to balance, but I think increasing Chu Ko Nu gold cost by 5 might be a good start. To have the Great Wall UT seen more, it could replace palisade walls with Fortified Palisade walls. Nerfing their tech bonus would be a possible other way to do it.

@ElizaKolmakov

Cumans

• Removed SWS and rams in feudal (bad idea to begin with, only good for cheese on BF/arena/hideout).
• Second TC builds in 200 seconds (down from 275 (the standard is 150 seconds))
  The second TC is nice but sees too little play in 1v1s because of how long it takes to pay off, reducing the time to construct should make it easier to go for that strat, while not impacting the rest of their options. On closed maps there already are better booming civs (Khmer, Celts, Slavs to name a few)

I flat-out disagree with this. There are legitimate strategies involving the Feudal Rams. If you are removing it, give Capped Ram for free in Castle in exchange. I think changing the 2nd TC build time is fairly reasonable, but not totally convinced.

@ElizaKolmakov

Ethiopians

• Also receive +100 wood when advancing.
  This is to make it easier to add a blacksmith/university and actually make use of the powerspikes you are supposed to get, ethiopians largely are overrated.

Really not sure about this one. I guess it could be a possibility, Ethiopians do need a bit of help I think though, because they often can’t end games.

@ElizaKolmakov

Franks

• Berry bonus removed (yep, you saw that right)
  They will have a more than solid win% without the 15% faster working foragers, I can assure you of that.

I guess it could be possible. I would rather start with the Cav HP bonus becoming 10%/20% in Feudal/Castle, and maybe nerfing Chivalry down to 33% faster.

@ElizaKolmakov

Goths

• +10 population in imperial age changed to +10 population available.
  Should help their opening and early game options by saving that 50 wood and few seconds of early worker efficiency, we will see some creative strats, and it won’t push them over the top when it comes to their lategame capabilities.

Could be an option. I would also support the idea of Goth hunters dropping off boar and deer without a drop-off point, but only the natural animals assigned to the player during map generation. They would naturally lose the current hunting bonus, and collection rate might need to be decreased to balance this.

@ElizaKolmakov

Incas

• Andean Sling increases skirmisher and slinger fire rate by 33% as well.
• Team bonus now is “Units move 10% faster while on farms”.
  The UT is atrocious for it’s price and does basically nothing compared to the aztec and mayan UTs.
  And the farm thing is a slight eco and defensive bonus to let them get to their castle age options easier.

I agree with the UT change, although it could also increase projectile speed slightly. I would actually prefer making the team bonus become: Farmers can drop off food in Towers and Castles, and Farms make units count as if they are on +1 elevation.

@ElizaKolmakov

Indians

• Shatagni also increases hand cannon accuracy to 100% (the old tech effect).
• Villagers now cost -5%, -10%, -15%, -20% in dark/feudal/castle/imp.
  Indians have been overperforming for a while now (known not just thanks to the SOTL video), the villager discount should be toned down a bit to make them a bit slower in their age ups and boom.
  And the shatagni change is… everyone likes hand cannons!

I disagree with changing the Villager thing, but Shatagni really should improve the accuracy of HCs. I don’t know about 100% though, maybe +10% or something. I would also be a fan of changing the elephant archer, maybe letting it fire while moving, or dealing low level trample damage when it attacks.

@ElizaKolmakov

Italians

• Elite genoese crossbow +1 attack, +1 pierce armor (Elite Genoese Crossbows)
• Advancing to the next age costs -20%
  Self explanatory, elite genbows are basically non elite genbows, and the cheaper age ups are nice, but could use some more.

I’m not sure about the +1 PA, I think it’s getting a bit too close to Rattans. Maybe, instead have them be countered more by other archers, and get +1 MA, or maybe fire slightly faster?

@ElizaKolmakov

Japanese

• Kataparuto also affects onagers (fire 33% faster, they don’t get SO so it’s reasonable)
  Great tech, very underused though due to… simply getting 3 trebs out being better. Should help with the poor lategame performance of japan, especially against archer and cav archer civs.

Not sure. It’s interesting, so I guess it could work.

@ElizaKolmakov

Khmer

• Base farming speed reduced by 5%, the post-hand cart rate kept the same. ( 2021 Annual Farming Update - Now featuring Burgundians & Sicilians! (AoE2) - YouTube)
• Elite ballista elephant +1 attack, +1 range, +1 pierce armor, cost increased from 1000f 500g to 1000f 750g (final FU stats- 11 damage, 7 range, 8 pierce armor, compare it to an elephant archer and you will see it’s rather reasonable)
  Khmer are an ok civ, but they have no good backline unit to supplement their hussars with, and ballista eles are too bad for their FU upgrade cost, with double crossbow and the elite upgrade. Ballista ele stacks aren’t even dangerous on BF because of how hard they die to siege onagers and how clunky they are.

I very much disagree with changing their farming. It’s already been nerfed several times, and it’s meant to be a bonus, not just a QoL change. Maybe the Elite Ballista Elephant could get this change, it does seem OK in exchange for a cost increase.

@ElizaKolmakov

Koreans

• Free archer armors removed.
• Archery range units +1 pierce armor.
• Archery range upgrades cost -20%.
• War Wagon bonus damage against buildings removed.
  Decent civ, war wagons are too oppressive early castle age though, as ranged units deal too little damage to them and they trade even against elite skirmishers. The armor and bonus upgrades should ensure they can’t be used to wipe someone off the map in TGs with just WWs.

Just get rid of the WW bonus against buildings, or reduce it, keep the free Archer armor, and make siege units get a 10% wood discount, as opposed to everything else, which keeps the 20%.

@ElizaKolmakov

Lithuanians

• Tower shields also adds +1 melee armor (their halbs are just trash now, without blast furnace and last armor)

Maybe not to skirms though. I guess it could work for halbs, but skirms would be improve quite a bit against other trash.

@ElizaKolmakov

Magyars

• Huntables and Herdables don’t rot.
  Small early game eco bonus to help out with the food aspect of the civ, as both of their preferred openings are just outclassed by civs with better bonuses for them.

I agree with this.

@ElizaKolmakov

Malay

• Advancing to the next age happens twice as fast (from 66%).
  I mean, that’s the only bonus that the civ has for the majority of games, might as well double down on it. An argument could be made that FI will be too strong with it, but we will see.

It used to be 100% faster, but it was too strong and/or weird, so the changed it. Just leave it as it is, possibly change the team bonus though, because it’s not very good on land maps.

@ElizaKolmakov

Malians

• The buildings cost -15% bonus now also applies to farms.
  Was removed because back then malians had quite a lot, free gold shaft mining, had halberdier, gbetos were better. Now with the removed free gold mining they struggle early game a bit, so the discount applying to farms again is natural.

Ok, this could be reasonable.

@ElizaKolmakov

Mayans

• Resources no longer last longer.
  Sorry, it’s too strong. MAA without deer, drush FC with only 2 farms, practically don’t need horse collar, can sit on their main gold without branching out until imp with the archer discount.

No. Change the archer discount from the current 10%/20%/30% to a 10%/15%/20% in Feudal/Castle/Imp. Arbs with that much of a discount are ridiculous. Maybe decrease the cost of plumed archers slightly to keep them the same. I would accept changing the resources from 15% to 10% or 12%, but not removing it entirely.

@ElizaKolmakov

Persians

• Mahouts (30% faster war elephants) removed.
• Elite WE now have 0.8 base speed, from 0.6.
• Land military units now produce 15% faster (old aztec bonus).
  Persians largely struggle on all non-hybrid maps due to how open in theory their tech tree is, but how little options they actually have. If they can mass more units, from all buildings, they should be able to go for their multiple options more freely.

No, just leave Persians. Keep the Aztecs with the military bonus, and don’t give a buffed version to Persians. Also, you suggested removing Mahouts, but didn’t even suggest a replacement. Do you want Persians to be the only civ that just has 1 UT?

@ElizaKolmakov

Poles

• Gain access to last archer armor, halberdier.
• Szlachta Privileges now makes knights cost -33% food and gold instead of -60% gold.
• Light cavalry deals trample damage by default (not scouts, light cavalry, like mongols).
• Lechitic legacy new effect- cavalry units regenerate (same speed as berber camels, 30hp/min)
  They still die to archer masses, and especially cavalry archer masses, so that’s what the last archer armor is for. Szlachta Privileges knights are waay too strong, and the cavaliers are… way too weak, without the last armor. The tech honestly is better fit for a gradual effect, like -30% in castle, -60% in imp, but that’s not how techs work anyway. It’s just tough to balance this whole thing, but we do know that poles need nerfs in some aspects and buffs in other aspects.

I think that there are a couple of things you could do for Poles, but this isn’t them. They could have Szlachta privileges nerfed to a 33% gold discount, but gain Paladin. (They have really good food eco, so a discount shouldn’t be done). They could have the gold:stone ratio nerfed slightly, but gain Halberdier. There are a couple of things that they could do, but I don’t agree with changing Lechitic Legacy.

@ElizaKolmakov

Portuguese

• Feitorias now occupy 3x3 space, cost -50% (125g 125s), HP is now 1500/1800/2100 in feudal/castle/imp. Build time unchanged (120 seconds). Available in the feudal age. New resource generation- 0.4f, 0.25w, 0.2g, 0.1s per second (It currently is 1.6f, 1w, 0.7g, 0.3s).
• Carrack now also doubles feitoria resource generation speed.
  Portuguese don’t need a buff, they need a rework. An economical one. It’s also a reasonable change historically- Carrack - Wikipedia Carracks were trading ships, not military ones.
  How this will impact the meta, well, let’s see.

I don’t agree with this change. I think keep them the same, but increase the production rate. Organ Guns are the units that need a buff. Elite Organ Guns, to be more precise.

@ElizaKolmakov

Saracens

• Monks and siege units now return 33% of their cost when killed.
• Madrasah removed.
• New tech- Grazing- 400f 200g, Cavalry and camel units generate gold at a speed of 1/20th of a relic. 60 cavalry units on the field is the same as having 3 relics.
  Fun low eco civ to play, and probably should stay that way. Monk UTs are bad, end of discussion, and they need a bit of help to afford their gold-heavy composition in post imp anyway.

I would rather keep Madrasah, but make it also give 10 gold per conversion. This could be increase to 25 gold in Imperial. It could also keep the current effect, but not sure.

@ElizaKolmakov

Slavs

• Monks +3/+3 armor as a civ bonus.
• Barracks techs free (supplies, squires, arson).
• Orthodoxy effect and price changed: 600 food, 500 gold. Barracks and stable units +15% HP.
  Underperforming and underused cavalry civ that in theory has the potential to compete with the top dogs, just not until it has better than average cavalier. Their infantry already is amazing, but we don’t see infantry enough, so I’m not sure how this will impact their infantry play. Also, it would require quite a lot of resources to fully upgrade, so it shouldn’t be something we see in 1v1s. These changes are primarily aimed at TGs, while the monk change is aimed at 1v1.

Having the barracks techs for free could be interesting. I think it might be too strong though, maybe 50% cheaper and free supplies? I would rather that Orthodoxy stays as a monk effect, but it no longer gives monks armor. Instead, whenever a unit is being healed by a monk, the unit gets a temporary +2/+2 armor, and the monk gets +1/+1. When a monk is carrying a relic it gets a +5/+5 armor boost.

@ElizaKolmakov

Spanish

• Barracks, stable techs no longer cost gold (bloodlines, supplies, arson).
• Monks convert faster as civ bonus.
• New castle age UT- idk what name- units cost -15% food (including villagers).
  Saw this idea somewhere on the forum, the bloodlines change should make for some interesting feudal play, and the barracks thing is just to make it a bit more global, as just bloodlines doesn’t cost gold is a bit too small. The monks thing is to keep the inquisition part, and the new UT is aimed at aiming their boom and lategame military options (all of them use food), while not being too strong earlygame, as it would be if it was a civ bonus.

I think changing the gold cost could be interesting. I don’t think faster converting monks should be a civ bonus. Maybe if Inquisition gave monk units +1 range, or decreased their recovery time slightly?

@ElizaKolmakov

Turks

• Removed gunpowder technologies cost -50% (it’s only relevant for BBT now anyway, and Turk BBT are notorious for being extremely obnoxious, slowing down the progression there won’t hurt them too much).
• Gold miners work 25% faster.
  Turks probably need something else as well, but they are in a good spot in TGs, maybe even too good. Their post imp with huss/CA BBT BBC is strong in many situations, as is their fast imp, but their earlygame lacks behind. Idk how to make them more viable in 1v1.

I think changing gold miners could be alright, but maybe change the Gunpowder tech to -33%. Elite Janissaries need a buff though. Increasing Elite Janissary accuracy from 65% to 70% might be a good start. Still less accurate than HCs (75%), but not as bad now, and have better stats in general.

@ElizaKolmakov

Vietnamese

• Conscription free from castle age onwards.
• Paper money removed.
• New imp UT: Lumberjacks no longer need to drop off resources.

The Conscription change is interesting, but I’m not sure how balanced it would be. Maybe if Conscription was available in Castle, but costed 50% more, and was then free in Imp? I agree with removing Paper Money, but I think replacing it with a Guerilla warfare tech would be better. Maybe if it let Archer units no longer reveal their location to enemies when they attack? That would very much reflect a shower of arrows out of the darkness.

That’s my opinion.

[UpmostRook9474]

@ElizaKolmakov

Japanese

• Kataparuto

Better change it into a new UT to buff the samurais (perhaps +2 pierce armor) and add the bombard cannons (and also siege rams maybe) to their tech tree.

The Japanese do not need the powerful siege weapons but need the counter units to against siege weapons. On the other hand, Kataparuto is 100% fabricated. As an UT, the characteristic of a civ, that is seriously unacceptable in my opinion.

[FurtherLime7936]

Khmer farm bonus is completely fine.
and lol Spanish with barracks and stable tech without gold cost would be beyond broken, pretty much every fight in 1v1 the spanish player could force you to go for a trash war too early, plus making their halb+siege ram push OP on arena, because you basically save obscene amounts of gold. Spanish need is an early game eco bonus (I always proposed Berry bushes containing 50% more food).

ROFL, I forgot that you will have cavalier and paladin upgraded without gold cost…totally balanced…

Ok I read and I found that you want that to only Bloodlines, Husbandry, Supplies, arson and squieres, then is just a trash bonus

[TheConqueror753]

Just give Samurai +1 PA by default. Kataparuto is too nice to use, who cares if it’s fabricated. It just feels so much better having trebs that unpack and fire faster.

[UpmostRook9474]

I care. I think many people who are attracted by this game due to the history-related performance would also do care.

On the other hand, it is underused since you have to take the time and resource to concentrate on spawning as more trebs as possible and on fixing castles in the treb rush, when Kataparuto should be the most needed timing but you don’t get spare to research it. After the treb rush, Kataparuto is unnecessary. Pay the resaurces to train the troops to protect the trebs is always more important than it. It is not underrated, it is just not such meaningful and useful.

The Japanese do not need the better trebs and onagers but they are weak to counter the siege weapons, especially the onagers and scorpions. The bombard cannons would actually help them well.

[TheConqueror753]

Give them BBCs, give Kataparuto to another civ, and create a cool and useful new UT and I’m sold.

[UpmostRook9474]

@TheConqueror753

give Kataparuto to another civ

Perhaps adjust it then give it to the Huns as a civ bonus?
+30% accuracy against units is not such obvious. Maybe faster rate of fire could make it better.

[TheConqueror753]

I don’t like Huns that much though. Ideally a new civ gets it as a UT.

[ApplaudedPoppy2]

@ElizaKolmakov

• Should help their opening and early game options by saving that 50 wood and few seconds of early worker efficiency, we will see some creative strats, and it won’t push them over the top when it comes to their lategame capabilities.

No seriously, I don’t understand how people still continues to ask for early game goths buffs. My only explaination is that you just weren’t around when devs tried to rebalance them with cancer strats like the endless militia spam in dark age and extreme laming shenanigans with the free loom.

By the way I don’t want to be too harsh but it seems to me that you have never actually played a lot of the stuff you ask to change, for example I doubt you have ever tried burgundian vineyards if you ask a buff for it.

[CelticKeeper]

@ElizaKolmakov

Byzantines

@ElizaKolmakov

They just need a better military that’s all.

Byzantines are my seccond favorite civ but sice I play moslty Single playere, I enjoy playing will all of the civs, thus my requaests are not aiming to manke any civ stronger than another but instead to make every civ more historically uniqe and diverse.
So here are a few contrevertial changes I’d like to see:

Current civ alterations.

Vikings.

Have Vikings lose free hand cart + lose Arbalerster but instead they get Halbedier,(NB!) have their longboats be able to attack as well as transport units (Infantry only) (loses transport ships but they have non attacking Longboats in feudal age.) and gift them cheap trash units.

Castles cost change to 450 stone and 300 wood OR… Since they get Halbs change their unique tech Chieftains to allow Beserks to be made in TCs even after all castles have been lost.

I’d enjoy raiding coastlines and rivers using longboats to transport infantry and skirms to the shores of my enemies.

Byzantines.

In turn have Byzantines lose Hand cannoneer, bombard cannon and bombard tower , [to have them not become intensely OP and these forms of warfare was much more used by their neighbours (Italy) and enemies (Turks)]. Trash becomes more expensive and Imp becomes more expensive but Civ gets free wheel burrow and free hand cart. (For even when they were still the Eastern Roman empire, they already had WB+HC)

Byzantines get a unique tech in the Feudal age barracks: Justinian Reforms - Sword line +1 Melee armour from castle age.

(Optional) Enables the technology of Varangian Guard from the Feudal age.

In Feudal age , Byzanitne army gain access to a special unit in the Barracks called the Varangian Guard. - Expensive , slow moving but difficult to convert with a limited build amount.

Since the Byzantines are a Defensive civ, the Varangian Guards can have a high attack boost when in the vicinity of a TC or Castle but outside a certain radius from these buildings the VG should lose the strong attack bonus and just be as strong as a normal Man at Arms/Long Sword/Champion.

(Highly loyal guards of the Emperor) To defend against early rushes , but since they are expensive,slow and limited, you will have to think strategically as to when and where to deploy/station them.

Unique Castle techs remain Logistica and Greek fire.

African ,Mezzo,

African and mezzo civs should only have canoe navies. Able to fire arrows ,fast ,agile and only using 0.5 pop space but they don’t have access to Gally line, nor cannon. Gallons. All canoes can carry/transport 3-5 units. Don’t have access to fire ships but get fire canoes that shoot fat covered fire arrows (Fat burns intensely hot).

Civ Architecture alterations

Please give the Chinese and Koreans their own Castle Architecture, the Japanese castle really doesn’t do them justice.

Nomadic architecture set for the Nomad civs, Mongols get Yurt houses and steppe Nomad architecture. Tartars + Cumans get Yurts for dark age houses and Huns too get steppe Nomad architecture. The Mongol Yurts should have less HP but also be much cheaper.

With their Unique tech ‘Nomads’’ if their cheap , low HP Yurts goes down, then they need not create more. It will be perfect.

Georgia: New Caucasian set

Armenia: Caucasian ,ME Hybrid set

Byzantines+Sicilians Medi (Dark+Fudal), ME (Castle+Imp) Hybrid set

Or something like this will be perfect: [Steam Workshop::[IA] Catbarf’s Byzantine Buildings V2 (WiP IA Version)]

General additions:

Add some more special units to represent the knightly,chivalric Crusader orders , such as a Templar knight or a Hospitilar knight to the Franks/British/Italian/Sicilians , Templar having the option to convert 1 unit for every charge up and the Hospitilar having the option to heal 1 unit for every charge up.

Or perhaps add these as technologies that can be researched in the Church ‘Templar Order’ & ‘Hospitilar order’ that will grant the already existing knights of the British/Franks/Italians these abilities.

In turn the Islamic civs:Saracens, Turks, Tartars can receive a tech in the mosque called :Jizya tax, for every knightly unit they convert, you receive 5gold.

Perhaps add a technology called Falconry that adds +1 LOS to knights.

For Japanese/ME.

Add a Japanese unit into the barracks , a ninja , that is invisible to the enemy on the mini map. Pop limit of 10 . The Hashasshin (ME) / Shenobi (for Japan) unit can be a stealth unit that has a weak attack but has a large attack bonus against Trash units and kings. Max allowed Hashasshin / Shenobi pop = x5

Becomes visable/spotted when within LOS of Towers,outposts,castles.

[timecloud5713]

I only like the ideas about Burmese and Franks, the rest is completely over the top and wouldn’t help the game. Otherwise fun read

[Semulquio]

why do ppl want to completely destroy the War Wagon? Isn’t it enough that the Arambai is a completely useless unit nowadays, do you want to do the same to the War Wagon? Leave them alone, they never hurt anybody! ;(

(ヘ･_･)ヘ┳━┳

(╯‵□′)╯︵┻━┻

---

Btw i noticed you’d give 0.8 speed to the elite war elephant, from 0.6. How would anyone be able to counter such a thing? with over 600hp, 0.8 speed + husbandry, counter would be mass monks? Can’t really go halb because they have trample dmg and when you get to 30 or so eles, they kill anything that touches them, so monks it is! But my monk micro sucks!

┻━┻ ︵ヽ(`Д´)ﾉ︵ ┻━┻

I tell you these balance posts man, they drive me crazy lmao!!!

[ElizaKolmakov]

Oh and to preface things, I’m 1600, my balance suggestions come from my personal lategame experience and what I have seen in tournaments.

@MatCauthon3

This is unnecessary if you ask me.

Burgundians are too strong in boom situations, closed maps, and enables them to go for a bit too many openings to predict, even on arena.

@MatCauthon3

That’s a huge buff and unnecessary imho.

To the civ that has never had above, who knows, 48% winrate?

@MatCauthon3

I’d rather go after the feudal hp bonus.

That was discussed.

@MatCauthon3

Do we really need to buff Italians on water?

No, we need to buff all other civs on water. But 20 food cheaper ageup isn’t a bonus for water, it’s for feudal and FC. On water maps you have enough food anyway.

@MatCauthon3

Ugh civ bonus are supposed to provide advantages not just qol.

10% faster farming without paying attention to where your farms are seems good enough.

@MatCauthon3

Lith are fine and need no buffs.

I don’t disagree with that.

@MatCauthon3

Malians don’t meed buffs either.

They kinda do, honestly.

@MatCauthon3

And now their late game is utterly trash.

With FU halbs, plumes, siege ram, 100HP eagles? I doubt it.

@MatCauthon3

Completely busted.

Persians are… bad. I won’t use more colorful language, but they are bad. The old aztec bonus fits their identity and won’t break them in any way.

@MatCauthon3

This is a massive overbuff.

Well I have 0 clue what to do about poles, they are too strong, but they are strong in weird ways.

@xXxVladMasterxD

Crazy idea. What if we make the tech Orthodoxy make knights and boyars more resistant to conversions and gives them 5 bonus damage to monks. That sounds cool.

What about garrisoned relics give extra armor to your units? Up to 4 total, first relic gives 1 melee armor, second gives 1 pierce armor, third gives one melee armor, fourth gives 1 pierce armor. So in the end with 4 relics they get +2/+2 armor on their units.

@TheConqueror753

Aztecs aren’t made good because of the faster producing military so much. They are more made good because of the eco, as with a lot, if not all, of the standard S tier civs.

Their eco is a lot worse than mayan, chinese, even khmer. Aztecs are good because if you go one range and they go one range they kill you, if you go 2 ranges and they go 2 ranges they kill you. And because they can start massing eagles in feudal better than mayans and incas can.

@TheConqueror753

I’m sorry, have you seen the Hussite Wagon?

Hussite wagons are bad. I have played mostly Bohemians ever since they came out. The hussite wagon is just a bad unit. Too slow, deal no damage, and you are better off going skirms in every single case in which you would use them.

@TheConqueror753

Stirrups is meant to do improve that. I guess you could go from 2.4 to 2.3, but all the way down to 2 is too much, especially post Stirrups.

Bulgarians underperform and would much rather go THS + hussar than konniks, in fact, we never see konniks. After the infantry buffs which proved that you can buff melee UUs without them being broken, we can start with all the good in theory, but underused cavalry units. Like boyars, konniks, war elephants even.

@TheConqueror753

but then a lot of it falls off in Imp

It falls off too much I feel like, with the awful hussars and not great skirms. We saw it in KOTD.

@TheConqueror753

It could always enable flamethrowers, or make all units deal bonus damage against buildings in exchange for a cost increase.

True, byzantines struggle with pushing buildings the most. And could be both. Like an arson, but for all units? Could be too strong on archers and skirms though, like obsidian arrows.

@TheConqueror753

There are legitimate strategies involving the Feudal Rams.

There really aren’t.

@TheConqueror753

I would also be a fan of changing the elephant archer, maybe letting it fire while moving, or dealing low level trample damage when it attacks.

Elephant archers are crazy strong in certain matchups, against britons especially. If indians get to a good mass in post imp it’s close to impossible to stop them without SO.

@TheConqueror753

get +1 MA, or maybe fire slightly faster

That is an option too.

@TheConqueror753

make siege units get a 10% wood discount, as opposed to everything else, which keeps the 20%.

It’s a bit counterintuitive.

@TheConqueror753

It used to be 100% faster, but it was too strong

I know, but their winrate wasn’t amazing back then either.

@TheConqueror753

I don’t agree with this change. I think keep them the same, but increase the production rate.

We will never see feitorias in their current state because in imp gold and stone are too valuable. Giving portuguese boom options in feudal will make them an interesting civ to play and to play against. Kinda like the dutch in aoe3.

@TheConqueror753

I would rather that Orthodoxy stays as a monk effect, but it no longer gives monks armor. Instead, whenever a unit is being healed by a monk, the unit gets a temporary +2/+2 armor, and the monk gets +1/+1. When a monk is carrying a relic it gets a +5/+5 armor boost.

Check up.

@TheConqueror753

Maybe if Inquisition gave monk units +1 range, or decreased their recovery time slightly?

Even if monks had 0 recovery time it wouldn’t change much, the issue with monks in imp is micro, not their ability to convert.

@UpmostRook9474

add the bombard cannons (and also siege rams maybe)

For various reasons, japanese will never get bombard cannons and siege rams.

@UpmostRook9474

On the other hand, Kataparuto is 100% fabricated. As an UT, the characteristic of a civ, that is seriously unacceptable in my opinion.

It is, but it fits the civ identity. Maybe they will change it, who knows.

@FurtherLime7936

Ok I read and I found that you want that to only Bloodlines, Husbandry, Supplies, arson and squieres, then is just a trash bonus

It really is a “trash” bonus

@TheConqueror753

Give them BBCs

They never will get BBC, and shouldn’t.

@ApplaudedPoppy2

No seriously, I don’t understand how people still continues to ask for early game goths buffs.

What don’t you understand? Aside of drush/maa opening, Goths are pure bad until imp. Virtually 0 bonuses.

@CelticKeeper

but sice I play moslty Single playere

Then I’m afraid this post isn’t for you, balance is mostly decided by the meta, which is decided by multiplayer.

@Semulquio

Btw i noticed you’d give 0.8 speed to the elite war elephant, from 0.6. How would anyone be able to counter such a thing? with over 600hp, 0.8 speed + husbandry

… The way they are countered now? With Mahouts they have 0.8 speed. It’s just we remove the extra step of needing Mahouts for this.

[timecloud5713]

@ElizaKolmakov

@MatCauthon3

Do we really need to buff Italians on water?

No, we need to buff all other civs on water. But 20 food cheaper ageup isn’t a bonus for water, it’s for feudal and FC. On water maps you have enough food anyway.

What is 20 food going to do honestly?

@ElizaKolmakov

True, byzantines struggle with pushing buildings the most. And could be both. Like an arson, but for all units? Could be too strong on archers and skirms though, like obsidian arrows.

This statement alone makes me doubt that you ever played Byzantines. How do they struggle against buildings?

I don’t want to be harsh here, but your balance ideas don’t seem to fix anything and are more of a “let’s change stuff for the sake of changing stuff” argument.

[ElizaKolmakov]

@GamingPriest97

What is 20 food going to do honestly?

It changes, not much, but it does. Makes BOs smoother.

@GamingPriest97

This statement alone makes me doubt that you ever played Byzantines. How do they struggle against buildings?

I don’t want to be harsh here, but your balance ideas don’t seem to fix anything and are more of a “let’s change stuff for the sake of changing stuff” argument.

Byzantines usually play trash units and camels, crossbows, all of which are notoriously bad at taking down buildings. In addition to that, they rarely go for forward SWS plays, or castles- as they prefer to fast imp- after which they try to get to BBC, but before those are on the field they are one of the worst civs at engaging walls and buildings.

[CactusSteak2171]

Wdym “Byz rarely go for castles”. Like, having a treb factory upon reaching imp is really useful.

[MatCauthon3]

@ElizaKolmakov

Oh and to preface things, I’m 1600, my balance suggestions come from my personal lategame experience and what I have seen in tournaments

And this just goes to show that you can he 1600+ and not know how to balance.
If the equalizer evidence wasn’t enough.

@ElizaKolmakov

Burgundians are too strong in boom situations, closed maps, and enables them to go for a bit too many openings to predict, even on arena

And yet reducing the discount to 25% basically means at best you’ll only get upgrades in dark age during closed map games. In open map youre screwed.

@ElizaKolmakov

To the civ that has never had above, who knows, 48% winrate

And yet just saw extensive use in the most recent tournament. I think they need a buff but come on man. There is a reason no archer civ yet has a permanent +1 attack bonus to every ranged unit in the game.

@ElizaKolmakov

They kinda do, honestly.

If they do it needs to be minor. Not the massive buff you’re giving them.

@ElizaKolmakov

With FU halbs, plumes, siege ram, 100HP eagles? I doubt it.

All of which require GOLD. What do you do without it?