Civ Concept - Tibetans

Age of Empires II: DE II - Discussion
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Decided to throw my hat into the ring with this much-requested civ, see what kind of design I can come up with using their history. Let’s take a look…

Tibetans

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Cavalry and Monk Civilisation

Architecture set: East Asian
Language: Tibetan
Trade Cart: East Asian
Castle: Gyantse Dzong

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Wonder: Samye

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Civ bonuses:

  • Can create Drokpa at the Town Center
  • Cavalry receives double effect from Blacksmith armor upgrades
  • Villagers and Drokpa gather food 25% faster while on higher elevation
  • Gambesons affects the archer-line and cavalry archer-line

Team Bonus:
Monastery provides +5 population room

Unique units:

  • Golden Arrow

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Tibetan unique cavalry unit that thrusts its spear through multiple targets. Strong vs. infantry. Weak vs. cavalry.
HP: 100 (120)
Attack: 7 (9)
Armor: 2 (3)
Peirce Armor: 2 (3)
Line of site: 5
Speed: 1.3
Build time: 15s
Reload time: 2s

  • Drokpa
    Tibetan unique villager. Does not require a drop-off site.

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HP: 100
Attack: 3
Armor: 1
Peirce Armor: 1
Line of site: 5
Speed: 0.5
Build time: 35s
Reload time: 2s

  • Imperial Steppe Lancer
    Tibetan Upgrade to the Elite Steppe Lancer
    HP: 100
    Attack: 13
    Armor: 1
    Peirce Armor: 2
    Range: 1
    Line of site: 5
    Speed: 1.45
    Build time: 17s
    Reload time: 2s

Unique Techs:
(Castle Age)
Nang Chos - Non-siege military units regenerate when near a monastery.

(Imperial Age)
Mirror Armor - Mounted units receive -3 damage from infantry.

Missing Techs Tree:

Barracks:
Eagle Scout

Archery Range:
Elephant Archer

Stable:
Paladin, Battle Elephant, Heavy Camel, Husbandry

Siege Workshop:
Armored Elephant, Siege Ram, Siege Onager

Castle:

Dock:
Galleon, Elite Cannon Galleon, Dromon, Fast Fire Ship, Shipwright

Monastery:

Blacksmith:
Bracer, Plate Barding Armor

University:
Treadmill crane, Bombard Tower

Economy:
Crop Rotation

Alright, the overall concept of this civ was for tough units that are a bit expensive (some of their civ bonuses even have to be “paid for”) and not much extra damage (if any), with some interesting eco bonuses. While they are designated as a “cavalry and monk” civ, they do have other areas they can use, and are not a one-trick-steppe-pony.

Overall, the concepts are there to try and make players play like they are in Tibet. With a focus on semi-nomadic elements with Drokpas. Visiting a monastery to meditate with their castle unique tech. Using the mountains with their eco bonus. And having tough armour.

Speaking of, what are the concepts behind their unique units?

Golden Arrow. This is a unit built to cut through waves of chaff, it’s reasonably tough but has low attack, but that’s where the piece through damage comes in. Tibetan lances were recorded to be exceptionally long, so this was a good way to represent that, while also giving it a good use within the army.

Drokpa. Anyone who played Age of Mythology will be familiar with these. These function like the Atlantean villagers; they are tougher than villagers, better at gathering resources due to not needing a drop-off site, but pay for that in being slower to create from the town center. They would also be more expensive (how much, I am not sure the correct amount).

Imperial Steppe Lancer. If anyone deserves a final stage to this unit, it’s Tibetans. Since the civ lacks Paladins, and the civ is supposed to have some similarities with Teutons, this is their powerhouse in the imperial age instead.

Also on the “monk” part of the civ. I didn’t want to make their monks specifically better, as I am wary how quickly that could spiral out of control. So instead they get all upgrades, and their monasteries themselves are much more useful to build. This felt more on-theme and better balance-wise.

Oh, and since Tibet is land-locked, their dock is absolutely awful.

I didn’t include prices for the unique techs or unique units, as I wanted the focus to be on the civ concepts, not how exactly I have messed up the costing…but do let me know what you think about the designs!

8 Likes
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Not to be reductive, but are you thinking this would work like the ghulam?

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That was the intent.

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What’s the definition of higher elevation here? Higher than 0? It sounds completely useless

But I love the civ concept.

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How would this work? Would it be dependent on absolute or relative elevation? Most maps would be either 1 or 0 - I don’t remember which it is. But there can be reasons why a map maker would want to raise the map to a higher elevation. And if it’s relative, relative to what?

This bonus would be useless on some maps (like Arena, which doesn’t have any elevation) and absolutely broken on others (in extreme cases, applying to all food collection, including fish)

Supplies is a prerequisite for Gambesons, which based on the bonus for gambesons affecting archers and cavalry archers, this would be a bit problematic.

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Higher than the base level. As in, the level the game generates when making a blank map.

It didn’t sound too bad in my head when I thought of it being applied to farming. It’s not supposed to be strong though, as this design has a second eco bonus for the civ. Perhaps I was being too careful.

Thanks! Fun and theme were my first thoughts.

Good point. I added one, then the other. So I forgot. Going to edit that.

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I know they had excellent armor craftsmanship, but according to the Chinese historical records of fighting them, their cavalry did not perform well. On the contrary, their infantry were considered excellent by the Chinese.

Also, having Scout Cavalry get +2/+2 in Feudal Age for just 100 food would be broken. Knights with +4 pierce armor in Castle Age are also a concern.

It could be fun, but would be a huge balancing puzzle.
BTW, as the mechanic of this unit is focused on simulating a nomadic lifestyle, why not just give them to real nomads rather than to semi-nomads?

Economic dependence on terrain is niche and difficult to play. You can decide where your Tatars army will fight on and where your Georgian castle will be built, but it’s hard to get villagers to deliberately move away from the base to a high ground just to farm.

As far as I know, the golden arrow should not be the name of their military unit, but a token and an item used to signify the office of the levied warriors.
Naming UUs this term is inappropriate and could easily mislead players that they are ranged units.

I always wanted an effect like this given to Saracen Castle Age UT.
The current Saracen Castle Age UT itself means hospital, so it should not only affect the monks but also the monasteries.

Due to their mythology, Tibetans did not advocate the use of bows and arrows.
Chinese records also indicate that they were not good at mounted archery.
As for long-range weapons, they like to use slings, which is a characteristic not often in East Asia.

You make them lack Bracer just in exchange for higher pierce armor, but their marksman units should be much worse.

Not really, though it is not the most serious problem. Their lancers did not appear to have been recorded as being particularly outstanding, except for their lances being recorded as being of very long length.

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Correct. My own Tibetans concept had an Imperial Age UT, Golden Arrow Warriors. A bit confusing and potentially misleading, but less so than this person’s concept.

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Similarly I have “Golden Arrow” as the Imperial UT in my own Tibetans concept too, even though the effect might be different from yours.

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Correct. Mine gave infantry extra damage against other infantry. I ended up replacing it with a new UT tying in with the Gompa building I gave the civ in my latest revision.

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Yeah it’s too niche, almost like Incas old TB :sweat_smile: For example on Arena it’s useless, on Arabia it’s not useful until you spam farms on some crazy hilly area in late imp.

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And yet highly unlikely unfortunately.

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Tibetans are an officially-acknowledged minority in China (out of the 50+ list), their presence itself shouldn’t be a massive issue to the CCP.

So long that their campaign isn’t a repeat of Le Loi (revolting against chinese occupation) and possibly doesn’t feature the Dalai-Lama (a title only created in the 1390s so he may simply not exist at all depending on the campaign choice), which would make some parallels with the current situation, it should be fine.

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The imperial steppe lancer feels redundant with the golden arrow, and Tibet is the polar opposite of the steppe geographically so the steppe lancer doesn’t feel at home here. Maybe keep the imperial steppe lancer for the Jurchens instead, and remove the steppe lancer line from the Tibetans (who’ll still have the cavalier and their UU for cavalry).

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I was taking the Chinese notes with a grain of salt, and was more relying on information from Tibet itself. Which displayed heavy use of cavalry. Do remember that this civ design does lack husbandry, so none of their cav units are fully upgraded, just well-armored.

Scouts with extra armor still die to spears. It’s why I thought this would be different from the Romans bonus, as countering their infantry is done via micro and range, but cavalry it’s bonus damage (which ignores armor).

Knights I was a bit concerned with. But they are slower, and pikes still hurt.

Because my inspiration for the concept was more the yak. Having a big bulky animal with the villager is what makes them so tough.

That was kinda the idea. That you have to go out of your way to get it to work, and isn’t just a constant.

As far as my research led, it was a badge of officers, and was an insignia on their chest. If this was made into a model, it would be clearly visible on their unit model and icon.

The fact that the Chinese writers noted their existance means that the Tibetans were using ranged units, even though they were not as good with them as others. So this was a way to make sure they were still viable, but not due to their damage.

Also, my research into Tibetans showed them using bows (especially when mounted).

It was more the heavily armored look I was going for.

Good point on the redundancy with the Golden Arrow.

Although geographically, the Tibetan Plateau is not too different from the Steppe. It’s wide, flat and massive (about the size of all of India). While it can be argued if they should have a final stage to the Steppe Lancer, they should definitely have the unit line.

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Okay. Good to know that. I’d still say it is highly unlikely as Microsoft don’t have the courage to do so.

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Still steppe lancers are mainly associated with hordes, Tibetans don’t strike as such.

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There is no conflict between heavy use of cavalry and poor cavalry performance. The own records may be exaggerated, which the hundreds of cavalrymen could be written as thousands or even ten thousands.
The Chinese personally tested the strength of the Tibetan army on the battlefield and gave their evaluation. Since the Tang Dynasty had been their ally for some time, its records are of great reference value.

Husbandry is a Castle age thing. The Feudal Scout could already be broken.
Just because Spearman can counter them doesn’t mean their intensity is controllable.

I would like to just introduce Yaks as new 150 foods-carrying livestock and simply let the civ receive free Yaks every Age.

Well, what I’m saying is that such a bonus would be considered useless as it’s too random and situational.

So they are not suitable to be named Golden Arrow. I wouldn’t name a unit who wears a silk armor into “Silk Armor” unless the unit was historically called that indeed.

I didn’t say they didn’t have archery and mounted archery but their neighbor had observated that their archery and especially mounted archery sucked. It seems to me that they can train archers and CAs, but don’t need to have viable archers and CAs.

As they have cavalry available and infantry which should theoretically be good and advantageous (though you haven’t given them), their archers don’t need to be so viable.

Maybe allow them to train Slingers or better yet introduce a unique Tibetan slinger unit.

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I’m now remembering why I stopped posting civ concepts here.

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Why? You can’t handle the feedback?