British is mostly op at mid to low level not competitive level.
Itâs value depends on what itâs building, itâs not immediately a benefit. You donât train 4 architects at once they arrive 1 at a time, they only start spamming towers once youâve got all of them out and building together. I know the FI tower spam is annoying but you can certainly idle them early and prevent them building towers.
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How are you idling the eco of a civ that trickles res from lombards?
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So what if you did not trained 3-4 vills to trains architects? You have so much extra vills from techs that barely matter for Italy.
And was not just Kaiserklein complaining about Inca after that game, was a lot of players. And they were right. Fort + Huaracas used to be an unbeatable combo since huaracas used to kill anything that is not hand cavalry, and when hand cavalry approaches, huaracas just hid into the stronghold. Now, Inca is still lame because of their unkillable buildings. But at least they canât ship stronghold to one of the millions chasquis they adquire via shipments and there is a cooldown for units to go into the stronghold.
And chincha raft deserved a nerf. Cheap boat that could be spammed with ease. Was much better than the boats from legacy civs.
Plus, those huge ships are not that good on 1v1, because by the time you are on IV most of the fish will be out on a 1v1 game, making fighting on the water sort of useless. Might be good for team games thought.
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If youâre trying to stop the FI they already donât age up fast, then theyâre training 4 architects and stopping villager production. Theyâll have like 15 villagers at this point as well as a market, a house and probably 1 lombard build it in age 1. You can idle the architects to prevent more tower spam, with 1 lombard built even if they send the cards that deposit resources it will take over 5 minutes just to receive them at a rate of 2 res per second.
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What? Do you think the 4 architects will be idle until the 5th one is trained? 
At that point in the game you have the same amount of villagers as any other civ, the extra few you get from the market just covers the lack of villager cards. Upon reaching age 2 you wonât have more vills than any other standard civ.
I know that inca had certain things that were abused like the instant garrison in the fort, but that only became a popular strategy because everything else was no longer viable. Without the war hut age up kancha boom is too slow and vulnerable to early aggression. Schooners got removed, native rush got nerfed into irrelevance(which only became a thing because they changed the war hut age up to 2 builder travois which was totally unnecessary).
Chincha rafts are ok yes but itâs their only naval unit, they donât even get canoes. The chincha needs to be their caravel and frigate equivalents and needs to compete. Water dance was already majorly nerfed, schooners removed and chincha rafts have already been nerfed before. Try and take out a fort or a tc that has been carded with coastal defences as inca with just chincha raftsâŠ
All we want as inca players is the huaraca to be a cost effective anti-artillery unit because we have nothing else that deals with massed artillery. I donât care if the huaraca does 0.1x to infantry because itâs animation is trash anyway but it needs either more range than falconets or artillery needs to do like 0.1x damage against them. Alternatively give us light cannon in age 4.
My point was you train 1 architect and make it build a tower, itâs going to build slow and the time to build is only going to increment slowly as you add more additional architects 1 by 1. Sure with the age up tower you might have 2 towers when you get attacked but thatâs less HP in defences than lakota or aztec for example just aging up and shipping 2 war huts in base.
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You have 4 light cannons
At this point you basically saying "to hell with civ design, just give me s tier every counter
Inca have fast, mobile army and very cost effective warhut units backed by good eco and the beefiest turtle capacity in the game. By core design the civ shouldnt just smack cannons as fighting inca player requires lots of micro and care as you get snared and have to face hit and runs or get pulled apart by their fast infantry. This is a good design but has pros and cons, slow grind offense being a weakness of inca. your solution is "i dont like weakness, give them the best cannon/culv in game. Win every culv war and now inca dictates every single engagement.
Fix huaraca. Tweak villager limit or kancha trickles. Maybe a shipment. Dont destroy design with pure power creep imho.
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Lastly every single person, low to pro, whos faced Italy (but Italy mains I suspect) agree the current Italy is very grindy and tbh not super fun to push into. Free buildings free res wide open roster uber mercs. The civ was strong but very hard to use before and as builds come out more people perfecting this at same time italy gets massive buffs is perfect recipe to make a s tier broken civ. Meta could correct but pretending its easy or even likely 21 other civs can stop 7 towers 3 to 5k free res instant guard super age4 shipments while having good vill count or even boat boom is a bit of a stretch
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Honestly, I donât understand what is the devs obsession with making the Huaraca a pseudo-falconet, instead of making it a culv-mortar combo. I donât really like the idea of giving them Light Cannons though, since I think it would take some uniqueness away from the Haudenausaunee. Maybe give them some new units, like an Andean Bombard or a Manco Horseman to fill the holes in the roster?
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4 Light cannons isnât enough in extended games and personally I donât want light cannons I want a huaraca that works it should be more like an arrow knight. I just want it to be good vs buildings and artillery as intended. Give it a higher negative multiplier vs infantry and cav but give it 2 more range than a falconet and it would be fine.
The way I see inca currently is jungle bowmen are too low ranged for skirm fights, should be increased from 16 to 18 range. Chimu are fine and spearmen are fine. Macemen are ok now as well. Bolas warriors suck and huaraca suck. Bolas warriors need more range because 12 range canât deal with any kind of cavalry even with the snare, especially when bolas have a movement speed of 4 like a musk. Huaraca are out ranged and countered by the very units they should beat.
I donât think they got massive buffs, some more slow trickle cards wonât make any difference to the FI because the point of that is to hit age 4 and spam powerful shipments. The tower spam that people complain about isnât really anything special. Mexico can revolt and get 3 upgraded towers instantly, any of the natives can fast age and ship 2 warhuts into base way before italy have their towers up. Almost any euro civ can age up with a tower, FF and ship 3 more that auto upgrade. 4 upgraded towers probably before italy get their 7 regular towers built.
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They do have captured artillery and over pop mechanics to mitgate the costs. And many civs have weakness to late game artillery(TAD civs) that brute their way through. Making huaraca a bit more range naybe cap at 27 or 28 is probably ok but then makes their turtle basically imprevious. Maybe monumental arc nerf will make this ok.
Have you also watched any high level treaty or teams with inca? Cause somehow the civ manages fine there and youll see how the overpop high eco and cost effcient units all work to overwhelm. In 1v1 same inca used by many top players and use map control and strong units to slow creep the map back.
The core issue is when buffing a civ cause some dont know how to fix its weaknesses it is you make those who do unbeatable. Its a tough balance.
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It doesnât need the range of a mortar just a bit more than falconets, that way mortars will still perform perfectly fine. I understand several civs are weaker to artillery but none so as much as inca, for lakota itâs not such a big deal due to the cav multipliers but inca lack a dragoon to snipe falcs with and while chimu are good they donât trade well vs musks or halbs with cannon.
I donât watch treaty or team so I donât know how well they do there but in 1v1 changes are needed.
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Well, architects cleary does not build stuff slow enough as Italy can have 4-5 towers on like minute 7-8, alongside with 3-4 lombards and a basilica. Way too much building to push throught and punish a FI. Should either make them build slower or reduce the amount of architects that can be trained.
And about Inca: Firstly, saying that they only have a single lame build available is not true. Normal FFs, forward war hut with stagecoach behind, macroing to a 5 villĂȘiger with 4 villĂȘiger big button in transition to age 2, etc. All of those build orders are at the very least decent. Hell, even the double TC build from Inca on age 2 that aiz11 is playing lately seems to be decent.
Secondly, even if Inca only have a stupid and broken build still needs to be nerfed (Which is not the case). There is no excuse to have a broken and unbalanced civ in the game, and should be fixed instead of giving a excuse for not fixing it.
And chincha raft being the only available boat for Inca also does not justify they not getting a nerf when deserves it.
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Is that really something special though? They train like 5 vills less in order to get architects and have some towers. With almost any civ you could do a tower age up then straight to fortress, ship 3 towers card that upgrades them and then ship a fort by the same amount of time. You could also build a couple more towers in the transition to fortress with any civ probably sacrificing the same amount of villager time that you lose as italy training architects. Italy normally ship the church in age 2 to make the Fi more viable, so ship 700 wood with any other civ and build 3 towers itâs the same result in the end.
From this comment I know you donât play inca. The FF was nerfed in general not just the garrisoning of forts, bolas cards were reduced in number of units by about 30%, huaraca card was changed to no longer be infinite. You send huaracas once and you might be left with 2 at the most after theyâve died taking out falconets, theyâre 120 HP units that even a TC can kill with ease.
Stagecoach play is nothing special, tambos have a worse attack than a regular ATP trade post and many civs you come up against are either faster at taking the tpâs or theyâll do a 2 falc ff and itâs game over.
The queens festival or 4 vill big button got nerfed considerably, itâs what originally killed the kancha boom, you know it costs 900 resources for 4 villagers now?
Double tc build was killed when they made the card cost 500 coin, if dutch canât go highwaymen because 500 coin is too much for the card then even less so with inca that gather coin so much slower. The card used to be 250 coin which was fair when you take into account that an age 2 resource card should be worth 700 resources, now youâre spending equivalent of 1200 res for a tc and a war hut, itâs just not worth it 99% of the time.
Itâs fine that they nerfed the fort garrisoning nobody is arguing that but did they need to nerf the garrison, all of the unit shipments and make huaracas useless in the same patch? They later reverted the huaraca change but still that was one hell of an overreaction.
Chincha rafts are not too strong, theyâre extremely weak and low hp and with a weakened water dance now replaced with expensive dock techs theyâre far weaker than they should be and yet still they nerf their range more and more.
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Yes.
Other civs donât have half of the amount of dispensable buildings Italy have it to protect the base with, so the comparison is idiotic.
Plus, other civs donât have stuff like a free guard skirmisher with 5 speed and with stun hability when they hit age 4 as well.
I play a little bit of everything, including Inca from time to time.
The normal FF (Open tamboo and kancha â 3 vills â age with messenger â 600w â 700g â 5 vills-> age with wise women) is basically untouched apart from the lame stronghold that where justifiably nerfed. 14 tupi warriors for 500g is a great card that you can ship twice. Bolas is a good unit. Jungle Bowman trades insanely costly effective against skirmirshes. Huaracas are awesome at adding some DPS behind the composition. 2 TCs travois are also a great card for having multiples TCs for a really strong boom. This is still a reasonable build order without the stronghold.
You can also age to age2 with the messenger and do an early aggression and stagecoach behind like every native civs/Russia. Is quite decent as well.
4 vills that arrives pretty much immediately is quite decent despite the cost. You can macro to time the big button with 5 vills shipments and get 9 vills pretty fast on age 2.
And aiz11 is winning some games on his streams with that 2 TC build.
I can affirm that all of those builds mentioned are at least decent. And even if they were not, is not a good excuse to keep an autistic stronghold in game.
And chincha rafts are quite cheap, very spammable and quite strong for it cost. They dominate water battles despite water dance. Inca âonly havingâ this ship is a excuse, not an argument, to not nerf it. If you only have one unit, but itâs a broken unit, it should be nerfed nonetheless.
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Plenty of civs have high hp buildings, you can just make walls anyway with any other civ which is just as good or better. Making a lombard wall is no different to making a bank wall.
No they donât have auto guard skirmisher but they have access to skirmishers in age 3 or earlier as well as other civ specific bonuses like the africans get auto upgraded natives.
The way you do the standard FF is the same of course, like with every civ that does an FF lol. The FF was weakened because every unit shipment was nerfed. Bolas arenât a good unit, theyâre ranged anti-cav with a speed of 4 and range of 12 and have a negative multiplier vs anything but cav.
Jungle bowmen are a cost effective unit but later on in fortress youâll get kited by skirmishers due to your much lower range. 2 tcâs is just about the only decent thing inca have left, they nerfed that as well because it used to increase tc build limit.
4 vills for 900 resources is not decent by any stretch of the imagination, they used to cost half that which was a very reasonable price.
Aizamk is a player known for unconventional strategies and heâs very high level. Just because heâs won a couple of games sending a terrible value card like that doesnât mean itâs viable just that he is good enough to overcome that handicap.
the kancha big button is not a decent build at all itâs a terrible build. Kancha boom itself is also very match up dependant and even the FF is only really good if you plan on going eco and 2 tcâs then 5 priestesses, as an aggressive FF itâs useless. Again never said the stronghold didnât need to be nerfed but the huaracas need a buff.
It should if itâs broken, it is not though.
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The key word is: Dispensable.
If you are Dutch and lost like 2-3 banks, itâs kind of a big deal and is expensive to replace it. If you are Italy and lost lombards, basilica and towers, you donât care because is a bunch of crap that your architects built for free anyway, and they wonât matter when you hit age IV.
You are comparing bananas with apples again. Those are completely different things.
And instead of having skirmishers on age 3, they have a skirmisher on age 4 that already comes with the guard upgrade. Be objective dude. My statement is correct.
Also, you are really bad at comparisons. African natives are paid with influence, which is rare resource. Bersaglieres are paid with normal resources. Canât compare them because you canât spam natives as African civs like you spam Bersaglieres with Italy.
So, you indirectly admit it that you want something broken for you to lame. Inca already have a really solid FF, but you are not satisfied because âother civs can FF too lolâ. What you want more than a solid FF? A stupidly strong stronghold to âdifferentiateâ for other civs? You are asking for a broken and unbalanced civ.
Jungle Bowman now have the same range that normal skirmishers. And even if before, they were still good. Having less range does not matter because they are really cheap, you can triple/quadruple produce the unit and trades so well with skirmishers even with less range. This kind of reminds the Russians blayers complaining about strelets having small range and saying they are weak. xD
They are not, and Jungle Bowman is a good unit as well.
And I admit that I was wrong saying that Bolas are a good unit. They are a really good unit. Splash damage, snare from distance, incredible DPS, 1 pop and is quite cheap. How can you say that this unit is not good? Are you having a laugh? Now I know why you think that autistic stronghold is not a balance issue and chincha raft are not broken. Go figure what you think a good unit is.
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The italians send a card specifically to get a basilica and have xp trickle from lombard investment, theyâve used a 700 resource card to do that itâs essential to the strategy so that you can spam shipments. If you destroy a lombard or the basilica youâre significantly lowering their xp and/or resource trickle which will effect their FI.
Yes I know they have a free guard upgrade at the cost of not being able to make skirmishers in age 3 which is actually a big deal when you consider most games are won or lost in commerce or fortress age. I play a lot with african civs and whilst itâs unlikely you spam only influence costing units you get those in addition to all your regular units, do a FF and ship 14 automatically upgraded cannoneers and tell me itâs not strong.
In fact the skirms being locked to age 4 is probably a major reason why the italians have such a low win rate at all levels.
Youâre completely taking my comments out of context, you were telling me supposedly strong inca builds and say that a tp and a house start into 700 gold and 5v is some sort of special FF when itâs as standard as possible and I said the FF is weak because even if you do that the unit shipments suck this isnât an otto/spain/german FF by any means not even remotely close.
No they donât. Line of sight got increased not range. In age 2 they have a standard range of xbow of 16 which is ok but in fortress they only get 17 range with veteran tech compared to 20 range of a normal skirmisher and bowmen arenât that cheap either theyâre 105 res each. Well strelets got a way to increase their range and nobody is massing jungle bows like strelets lol.
Do you use the unit? It used to be great then they gave it a 0.5x multi vs infantry, itâs too slow to get in range to snare in the first place it has the speed and range of a musketeer so how exactly is it supposed to snare cavalry or even infantry? Itâs not a cheap unit either not for those abysmal stats. A plumed spearmen is far better due to itâs much higher speed.
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overall winrate should be taken into account so that all players feel a fairly fair balance, but the game would end up being as less asymmetric as possible.
In addition, there would be OP strats but they are too complicated to execute for the majority of players and has a 50% overall winrate that would embitter the gaming experience for professional players. And that they would never be nerfed because the balance is decided by the overall winrate.
edit: wow⊠i donât know how to use the answer tool
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