[DLC concept] The Wealth of India (Bengalis & Tamils)

Age of Empires II: DE II - Discussion
144

Thx folks, Camel absence added. Interestingly, that means there is no civ in Age 2 with both Camel Riders and Battle Elephants. Besides Persians with War Elephants the only one fitting would be Indians modelled after Delhi Sultanate / Mughals but they miss the elephants

145

Well a hypothetical Afagn civi can have all the stable unit lines.

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146

Get 1 free villager every time you make a TC and/or you age up to avoid overlap with Persians.

I agree with everything in the tech tree but this. Pala Empire promoted Buddhism. It was the biggest contributor to Buddhist literatures during that period. Also they established some of the earliest university in the world for Buddhist scholars to study. You can actually think about a bonus that benefit both of their Monastery and University, similar to new Bohemians bonus - Villager affected by Fervor and Sanctity.

Overall I really like your design except those parts. Although seems like the civ is pretty weak. The team bonus is useless in 1v1 and even in TG, tribute is often banned in tournaments. And there a lot of complains against tribute asking for a nerf. This civ bonus -

is pretty weak. Can be something different.

Another thing to remember, you made this civ with elephant but no knights. It will be very unique but honestly very hard to balance competitively. Malay is already more than half way there but they have a massive discount and still actually have knights even cavalier. Researching cavalier upgrade is not recommended as Malay but using knights when necessary is completely fine. Bengals elephants lacks both the discount or speed to be actually useful. Maybe you can reconsider adding knights?

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147

That would be AWSEOME . A civ having full stable ie Light Cav , Steppe Lancers , Knights and Elephants along with Cav Archers would be favourite . It would be interesting to see how a civ with FU heavy and light cavalry would play out .
Would like to see that implemented in the Afghan civ in the Dharma mod .

148

In my opinion, this is a really solid proposition for the DLC.

I would suggest such non-European DLCs (so as not to deviate from the topic in a sense):

  • your Indian DLC proposition :wink:
  • South American DLC - ChimĂș civ and Muisca civ
  • Caucasus DLC - Georgians, Armenians and Khazars

and two big DLCs similar to the good old DLCs:

African DLC - Congolese, Kanem-Bornu, Songhai, Zimbabwe and Mamluks
The Forgotten 2.0 - Tarascans, Siamese, Tibetans, Finns and Irish

2 Likes
149

One problem is that the elephant and lancer lines overlap currently(testing with full tech tree) lancer upgrades could be moved below the empty slot under the camel upgrades to fix.

How about making the elephants faster with each age or make the elephant upgrade free? would that help?

150

I though something but this is Khmer bonus.

This one won’t help the problem with elephants. Instead it will be a very OP bonus where elephants are already strong.

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151

For elephants most of the bonuses are already taken more hp attack speed armor.only things left are free upgrades 3rd upgrade or hp regeneration all seems pretty powerful.

152

And faster attack.

Tbh I think third upgrade without bloodlines would be balanced.

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153

except paladin
 they relied on light cav

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154

And faster trained. I read somewhere that out of all the elephants, Bengal elephants were easiest to tame. A faster training will be pretty accurate for them in that case.

155

I would rather use imperial eles for Bengalis personally

156

Why not both? Both of the elephants civs - Khmer & Burmese have 2 elephants bonuses. If Bengals become Elephants civ - which they definitely should - they should have 2 bonuses. And historically they relied on elephants more than those two. So a bonus with a second upgrade won’t be bad. Maybe even add 2 bonuses if knights are not available.

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157

Ele bonuses are already a dangerous thing to work with on death match though.

Would rather use cheaper ele upgrades there

158

Again speed is a factor there. Also game is not balanced around DM and standard setting is mirror civ anyway. If they don’t have knight line at all, they must have very very strong ele. I’d personally like to give them knights though. Just the knight.

159

Thx for your feedback. Yes, I guess Bengalis could have Knights, else they will not have many options in Castle (only slow ones + Light Cav).
Indeed many Ele bonuses are already used. I am open to giving Imperial Battle Ele to them, although this will not help before late game. That’s why I thought faster attack rate bonus might be great (hopefully making them viable in Castle?). Imperial Eles could also be an alternative upgrade like Winged Hussar to be available earlier and cheaper (Elite BE is quite expansive).
When it comes to Ele bonuses, Tamils also need at least one (for now, faster training), so I am reluctant taking it away from them. Thematically, Tamils should actually have Ele Archer, it would fit nicely and could also become a regional UU, but then Indians would have no really unique unit anymore (only Imp Camels).

Some more ideas for Bengalis:
How about giving them free Ballistics besides the free Siege engineers? This will make Archer rush attractive while also fitting artillery theme (I interpret this freely as many gunpowder bonuses are already taken), university focus (cheaper unis and monasteries were planned but are now Bohemians’ bonus) and would enable skipping universities for a while (only really needed for Chemistry). They should not have Arbalesters so that players need to switch units later.
Also, Bengalis focus on many gold-costly units (Eles, siege, Paiks) which is unfortunate. I have no perfect solution for this except that they already have eco bonuses incl. the gold production with Paradise of nations in late game.

@EvasiveBeast227: Persians have FU heavy and light cav + camels + war eles. pretty close already :slight_smile:
@Mubashir158: interesting bonus with the free vills. I still think the vill bonus is new as it works immediately in Dark Age and excludes techs and aging up. About monasteries: you are totally right with Pala empire. Bengal Sultanate to the contrary was not so much into monks, I’d say? So I don’t know how much monastery techs they should finally have.

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160

You can design another EA with different attributes and stats. For example, Kipchaks, Mangudai, Camel Archer, all are CA yet all are unique. You can consider Indians EA as Mangudai and Tamils EA as Kipchaks. Kipchaks has lower base attack but multiple arrows, lower toughness but higher speed (thanks to Cumans civ bonus). Tamils EA can also have that type of stats. Multiple arrows, 15% faster than EA, but lower base attack and HP. One thing I’m dying to see in game is a long ranged CA unit, a Longbowman in a horse. You can make an EA with 6/7 base range so it will have 8/10 range in castle/imperial while all CA has 6/7 in castle/imperial.

Extremely OP. At best you can give Uni and Ballistic available in Feudal, SE in Castle representing the earlier establishment of university.

Agree.

Yeah it is new but a lot of overlapping. Also seem weaker than Persians.

I mean if you don’t have a good monastery tech tree or a monk bonus, you’re not represnting the Pala empires emphasis on Buddhism. Imo, tech tree can’t be average. It should be above average. Fine with missing 2-3 techs. In fact Heresy must be a no no. And maybe Herbal Medicine too.

Edit : I actually designed 2-3 Bengals civ on my subconscious mind, all with completely new bonuses (I hope so). Need to be a bit organized. I’ll write here when it is finished.

BTW, do you think naming Chola would be better than Tamils?

161

May I share my idea of Bengals and Dravidians here?
I designed them before the release of the Burgundians and Sicilians.

Bengals
Southern Asian elephant civ

  • Elephant units +12.5%/+25% HP in the castle/imperial age.
  • Fishing boats moving +12.5%/+25% faster in the dark age/since the feudal age.
  • Universities cost 25% cheaper and supply 25 populations.
  • Universities research the techs 25% cheaper and 25% faster.
  • Team bonus: Monks +25% HP.
  • Wonder: Nalanda Mahavihara or Somapura Mahavira

UU: Flail Elephant, or could be Elephant Lancer
A strong siege elephant with 1 range and 50% trample damage, but low speed and rate of fire.

  • HP: 250>300(elite)
  • attack: 10>12, +25 vs buildings
  • range: 1
  • accuracy: 100%
  • rate of fire: 2.3
  • armor: 1/3>1/4
  • speed: 0.8
  • LoS: 5

UT:

  • Mahasenapati
    It is the title of the commander-in-chief of the army of Pala Empire.
    Elephant units +25% trample damage and +5 attack vs elephant units.
  • Dharmapala
    Means the protector of Buddhist dharma, also the name of a great emperor of Pala Empire.
    All units +3 HP while holding 1 relic, up to 5 relics.

Tech Trees:

  • Economy: no stone II.
  • Blacksmith: no cavalry armor III.
  • Castle: no sappers.
  • Barrack: no supplies, squires, arson, eagle line.
  • Stable: no bloodline, paladin, camel line, lancer line but having elite battle elephant.
  • Archery range: no Parthian tactics.
  • Siege workshop: no siege ram, bombard cannon.
  • Monastery: no heresy.
  • University: FULL.
  • Dock: no elite cannon galleon.

.

Dravidians
Southern Asian infantry and navy civ

  • Elephant units resist convert +25%/+50% in the castle/imperial age.
  • Basic accuracy of the archery range units +10%, up to 100%.
  • Free gillnets.
  • Transport ships cost 50% cheaper and +3 LoS.
  • Team bonus: Trade carts and cogs cost no golds. (Originally it was trade carts and cogs trained 80% faster.)
  • Wonder: Brihadiswara Temple. (Current Indian civ may need an another wonder.)

UU: Urumi
Melee infantry with 50% trample damage in 0.5 tile, good pierce armor and moving speed.

  • HP: 45>60(elite)
  • attack: 9>10, +4>+8 vs eagles
  • rate of fire: 2.13
  • armor: 0/2>0/4
  • speed: 1.05
  • LoS: 4

UT:

  • Wootz steel
    It was a pioneering steel alloy invented in Southern India (Tamil Nadu).
    All melee units +2 melee attack.
  • Kalaripayattu
    A kind of Indian martial art that originated in modern-day Kerala.
    Improve the trample damage of Urumi to 100%.

Tech Trees:

  • Economy: no stone II.
  • Blacksmith: FULL.
  • Castle: no hoardings.
  • Barrack: FULL without eagle line.
  • Stable: no hussar, paladin, camel line, lancer line but having elite battle elephant.
  • Archery range: no Parthian tactics.
  • Siege workshop: no siege ram, siege onager, heavy scorpion.
  • Monastery: no sanctity, heresy, theocracy, block printing.
  • University: no fortified wall, siege engineers, bombard tower, architecture, treadmill crane.
  • Dock: FULL.
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162

this overlaps a bit with Italians and Malians, only complaint though.

giving +3 HP to every unit, no matter the unit is probably not a good idea. it disproportionately favors archer units.

this is dangerous - especially as a free bonus.

no reason for this unless you’re not giving the civ thumb ring.

pretty weak ECO bonus.

so a high pierce armor infantry unit gets 100% trample? yeah. and people complain about eagles.

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163

To be honest, I do not do too much balance judgement to both of them.
If some parts of them may inspire people even just a little bit, it is fine for me.
People could adjust them by how they consider about balance.

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