Tower of victory would be pretty good if it actually worked like it says it does, and it wouldn’t require fighting over the sites. Still, I’m not quite sure about this proposal. I do think a lot of landmarks need tweaked so that there are always two valid options.
I am the one who had posted that suggestion, and I definitely still stand by it. One of the reasons the Dome of Faith is such an auto pick is because of the reduced scholar cost. Scholars are such a huge part of the Delhi that going Tower of Victory gimps your entire game unless you are able to all in and close out the game. If you don’t close out the game you are now short on gold(more expensive scholars), and most likely behind on tech(because you’re not producing as many scholars due to an army focus, and the increased cost).
Making double gold sacred sites/reduced scholars a civ bonus gives you more flexibility. You can focus on an improved military strat with tower of victory, or focus on feudal sacred sites. By moving the double gold generation to a civ bonus, you still retain the ability to go tower of victory for a stronger feudal, and set up for castle age sacred sites.
Also I just want to say to everyone suggesting having tech researchable in dark age that will do nothing till feudal just feels like poor design. If they are insistent on not giving us dark age sacred sites, I feel it would be a much better design to lower the research time of sanctity by a decent bit. The biggest issue with it currently is you’re getting it far too late in feudal. If you were able to get it by 5:30-6:00 instead of 7:30-8:30 it would still give you pressure on your opponents fast castle/a boost and relief to your own fast castle, vs now where the opponent is basically already aging up/on their way to aging by the time it comes in. The pressure sanctity creates is one of my favorite parts of it, since Delhi lacks any strong/unique feudal pressure. Mind you I would much rather it just be a dark age tech, but working within their current take on the tech I feel like this is a better solution, than researching a dead tech in the dark age.
edit: one thing that I hadn’t typed out but thought in my head was that with my suggested change I still imagined you to be able to produce scholars out of the Dome of Faith. With that tho, I feel it would still favor Dome of Faith in the landmark choice, and had the thought that Tower of Victory could function as a barracks in addition to its current buff. I feel if you only look at balancing the attack speed buff you run the risk of it becoming too oppressive(one of the reasons why I feel if they keep both landmarks generally the same as they are right now, the tower of victory would need a total rework). Making it function as a barracks would give it a nice buff and with both of my suggested changes would create a real choice between the two.
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You really can’t decrease the research time of sanctity enough to get it at 5:30-6:00 in Feudal. It’s impractical to get to Feudal before about 5 minutes with enough economy to utilize sanctity anyway. At that point it might as well just be a civ bonus. I think the idea of putting it back where it was (Dark Age) but requiring Feudal to utilize it actually creates more choice. You have to choose between Sanctity and Efficient Production, or you need to open double mosque and be a little later getting to Feudal. I think the only real issue with the tech before is Delhi could all-in on Dark Age and still generate gold to advance, whereas all other civs needed vills on gold to advance which kept them from being able to compete with Delhi in the Dark Age fight. If you force Delhi to collect gold, spend the resources to advance, and have vills dedicated to building a landmark for a period of time before grabbing sacred sites, Delhi can’t field so many spearmen and build so many walls/outposts.
On Tower of Victory, I think TheViper had the best idea: have it apply to all infantry/archers created within mosque influence without having to run past it (and obviously fix its current bugs). Making it work like a barracks is a pretty minor buff: 150 wood, or 75 gold for a dome of faith scholar to double the productivity of another barracks. The Dome of Faith is still going to save you at least 700 gold, if not over 1000 gold AND provides a production building for scholars that isn’t screwed up when you use F1 to make your military buildings gather at the front line (side note - which buildings fall under which F key really needs to be a user-configurable option).
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Yeah I still don’t like it in the dark age if it can’t be used. I’m perfectly fine with being in the minority on that. I’ve heard it said in quite a few different ways to make it sound useful but however I read it I always feel like it’s bad design to have a tech in an age when you can’t use it. Just to be clear I get the point of wanting to do that, just think it’s lazy design. Not to argue semantics but they could totally get the sanctity tech to be finished around the 5:30-600 mark by lowering the research time to 30-60s.
I definitely agree with any suggestion that makes the Tower of Victory apply easier. The current tiny area you have to apply it is just pathetic and unrealistic in a game. To go even further than vipers suggestion why not just make it a tech?
The reason I argue for the stated adjustments to the dome of Faith is because, honestly, with how important scholars are to Delhi, there is no point you will want to choose tower of victory over it unless you know you’re going to all in and either win, or fail and surrender. 15% attack speed does not scale any where as well as half price scholars for the Delhi. I do not want to see half price scholars nerfed to enable tower of victory to be viable, hence my suggestion to change reduced scholar cost to a civ bonus, give a small rework to dome(contains the sanctity tech/produce scholars) and tower(same buff or make the buff a tech/acts as a barracks) as I had suggested, and create an actual meaningful choice between the two, and how you want to play feudal age.
Personally I think Delhi is in a better place than most civs as far as landmark choice/usefulness goes, except for the feudal ones. With how Dome is currently, it’s a balancing nightmare. Tower doesn’t even come close to the scaling ability dome has due to how Delhi works.
I don’t think the present Dome of Faith vs. Tower is that imbalanced. The Tower (should) give you a permanent buff to the backbone of your army, putting your generic units on par with some unique ones from other civs. Dome (used to) only save you ~1000g, staggered out on the way to Imperial Age… though now that you require 20+ scholars for decent research speed, that effect is much greater.
If Delhi’s scholar requirement is once again reduced to 10-15, and the Tower is given a moderate buff (and affects all units produced within mosque influence, rather than ones who touch the Tower), I think the two landmarks would be balanced. The added power to your infantry will start making up for the lack of gold from the start, and only pay off more as the game goes on.
I actually look at this totally the other way around. Dome is good in Feudal because you don’t need so many vills on gold to maintain scholar production. Tower is theoretically more useful late game when the value of 75 gold per scholar is a much lower percentage of your economy. The only issue with the tower (other than the bugs) is in late game it’s a pain in the tail to micro getting all the units through it’s aura before they go to the battlefield. Combined with the Delhi’s already present need to build their base in such a way that everything’s under the mosque influence, I think having another building location constraint (in the path of military units coming from production buildings but not so far forward it’s easily destroyed by opponents) is way over the top. Even without aura it would still be a pain, but with aura it’s just dumb. Should be much easier to implement in your army.
Ok play with 150 cap pop against 200 for your oppenent for 10 minutes in Imperial with a generic civ eco and military but never pass that cap. Then we can start talking about how you felt about it THEN we can start arguing about delhi nerf ok ? ok.
Your little calculation worth nothing when you don’t oppose it against any other civ. Delhi eco and millitary are generic no matter how you see it.
All the game long ! so how you beat someone with better options and more ressources than you ? Oh and if you played Dehli you would know that elephants(3pop and 1k rss each) get rekt by springald, cannons, crossbowman (got buffed) and spearman (got buffed) so they are not even an options viable for dehli most of the time. 28 elephants moving like a truck in a wartank battlefield unable to defend itself (free kills)
Finally you want to do math ? Let’s go that so important scholar we need is ■■■■■■ as hell how is it ? 150Gold 45 seconds. Monk cost 200Gold and the same amount of time to product, you need like what ? 5 of them (monks) at a time ? Delhi need dozens of them ! Let’s compare them with the Prelate, they got similarities, they are special monks that give a boost to your civ…100Gold 20seconds (thanks god for HRE they are made in the forum at first) and at most 10 at a time of them are needed. But they give your vills 40% gathering speed ! the equivalent of an eco at imperial in the Dark age ! Remember delhi you need your scholars to have your generic tech in time it just cost you a landmark worth of wood and gold that you can’t afford and a lot of pop but hey it’s free what an advantage how can’t you win right ? =DDDD
And yes i don’t count the landmark because you just half the price wich for me should be the normal price and you should get production time halfed for the landmark instead in addition at this point if you want that landmark give you an advantage. We only play this landmark because scholar are over priced and the second landmark is worthless. And Delhi got no defensive advantage either so dehli got screwed end of the story
Hey but you learned something about the game now lucky you ;D
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you just got techs a minute faster at a time delhi isn’t that great to nerf their imp and force them to consume more pops on villager and scholar preventing them to get the number to make the difference over the qualities of your oppenent bc remeber that delhi got everything generic or slighlty worst than other, their only strength is their versatility wich is futile if your civ is SLOW AS HECK. Now Delhi need to all in feudal to hope to get an advantages over their oppenent civ and build it for castle but nothing is guarantee. In the other hand other civ GOT advantages and use it to build MORE advantages…other civ got gold for free Delhi need to fight for the most disputed objective of the game and easy to counter. The military production isn’t that great because half the wood was used for mosquessss or blacksmithssssss (100w for the first one and 150w) it would slow other civ’s mil production (except for mongols and chinese lul) but we got a COMPENSATION for that nothing more. Not an advantage, for our thirst of wood Relic games in his infinite wisdom granted us a compensation in feudal to allow us to match other civs all-in by giving us the equivalent of doubled production by sacrifying a scholar in a barrack ! WOW ! so OP (of course it’s not)
In the end Dehli is a Generic civ played differently nothing else (because elephant ain’t good imo)
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still 20 pop in imp eaten by research time is insane. it’s give you no military value for 5 minute and you never got eco bonus unlike other civs to compensate. delhi isn’t that good in defense either, dumbos are sitting duck waiting to get shoot by crossbow and the seige version of them…and spearman and handcannons…meanwhile your oppenent got far better version of your units, better eco and a bigger army since they didn’t loose 20 pop out of nowhere. And player will know, early Imp mean Delhi’s weak point. If they don’t get you with their ealry knight/MaA/Longbow/Zughe Nu/Horsemen at first they just have to defend until imp. Dehli’s Castle isn’t that great either. Dehli strength lie on their military versatility and quantity over qualities with elephants to reinforce the zerg. In addition the economic effect that free upgrades give you should allow you 3 things invest in a eco boom, military all in or Age rushing to get those juicy tech running. BUT since the two first option insn’t that great compared to other civs that often got both better than you. And now that Delhi’s imp is worthless the third option…what’s the point really? Against weaker player you will win but it prove nothing. Against Same level player you’d be stupid to take dehli over anything else if you think of it. No matter your level. Low experienced player ? play English/French/HRE/RUS. Veteran player ? Play Mongols/Chinese/Abassid. Even TheViper stopped playing them since that patch to main HRE instead.
Playing Dehli now is a bother and headach period haha ! it’s funny because it’s true XD
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There is literally not a single change/bugfix to Delhi even though the civ is drowning in bugs. What a joke haha.
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My expectations have hit rock bottom now. All I am asking for now is no more new bugs, especially not in Delhi.
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I think we can all agree that Relic decided to pull the plug on Delhi for some reason. You could delete the entire civ by this point. They are dead.
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I mean there is not even a SINGLE bugfix on Delhi despite a billion posts made. Ok, you already killed the civ with all the nerfs but what about the Bugs. There is no other civ out there with that many bugs. 40% of this civ is drowning in bugs. How is it even possible they come with a hotfix for bugs and totally skip on Delhi.
Can’t even be a coincidence anymore since some of these Delhi bugs are present since the beta.
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Who can argue with you? This is dramatically obvious, the ugliest scandal of bad faith in the 22-year history of Age of Empires.
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lol , i have no words haha . great response though
they probably are going to be fixed later on , this new patch was to fix and nerfs some game breaking bugs and exploits and to be fair , i wouldnt expect a delhi balance change till the spring 2022 update
Couldn’t agree more. Sort it out devs
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Spring 22 is too late. Situation is obviously serious. Horseman was a massive screwup, but Delhi is already the real #1 scandal of Age of Empires.
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first of all, If you like to play delhi, pls look, how the scholar-thing works:
the building of the scholar (you can build multiple) will boost the reseachtime extreme, if the buildings that research something are in range. Keep in mind, the delhi need NO resorces for research!
place one scholar in every producing building like barracks, and boost the construction time by 100%
If you play delhi like that, you will see, that they needed this nerf: research with no need for resources, fast unit building time and a towerelephant every minute for free…
To be honest, I hated the civs that rushed me down at first, but then I learned their pros and cons and I was able to counter some things. This what AOE4 is all about: adapting to the specials of all civs.
Have fun and keep calm 