Game will never be balanced till siege is CAPED or nerfed health

So sick of mass seige every game. Rush to imperials and mass siege,
This game will always suck till siege is nerfed to the ground or caped at like 10
Its a big issue in team games and not so much in 1v1. Over 15 bombards and NOB/Mangrels just kills everything with no real counters.
Only coumter is massing seige yourself
Again if you dont play team game just dont reply. you have no idea

6 Likes

Yesterday I played a team game 3vs3 with random on Mongolian heights. On other side there was 2 Chinese civ… They spam bombards and nob all the time and other one only french cav. I only build pikes and springalds with support of keeps behind for safe retreat. We easy win for holy sites victory.
Spam sieges of mangos/nob and bombards is silly and high costly. They are easy countered by springalds and cost a lot less in comparison.

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Add bulid limit to siege sounds referential, we can also add more option to differernt nation about the specific limit quantity.

N TEAM GAMES IT DOSE NOT MATTER IF YOU RUSH!!!

YOU RUSH AND ANOTHER TEAM COMES AND KILLS YOUR BASE OR THEY DEFEND THE OTHER PLAYER!!!

TEAM GAMES YOUR ALMOST FORCED TO TEC OR BOOM. SOMETIMES YOU CAN GET LUCKY AND THEY SUCK AND YOU KILL 1 PLAYER AND THEY ALL DROP.

So in team games you mass your best units and defend and move out when everyone is ready… sometimes its a long time tell your team wants to attack.
In this type of game Siege is OP as hell. You get to a critical mass with siege and you don’t really need anything else. Everything else is fodder . The Bombards and NOB/Mangels do all the work. Pointless to make anything else at this point in game

The counters dont work. Springles owned(). Mass calv. owned. only 1 thing can stop it and thats mass seige yourself.
If you have a China player he can mass springles with firelancers and that dose work sometimes. Thats if he isn’t dead yet and not a noob.
Thats what your left with. massing walls and seige in 3v3 and 4v4

Mangonel:

  • 240 HP, 288 HP with Siege Works
  • 12 Damage in bursts of 3, 34 total damage per shot AOE
  • 8 Pierce Armor, 11 with Siege Works
  • 9 Range
  • 0.88 tiles per second movement speed
  • 6.75 seconds rate of fire

Nest of Bees (Purely Clocktower version) (Which means it’s going to take twice, thrice, quadruple, etc etc etc times to build the mass because of no siege workshop production for them. If you use Siege Worshop base HP drops to 200):

  • 300 HP, 360 HP with Siege Works
  • 8 Damage in bursts of 10, 80 total damage per volley AOE (Where the entire volley needs a lot more time than a mango shot to be delivered)
  • 8 Pierce Armor, 11 with Siege Works
  • 8 Range
  • 0.93 tiles per second movement speed
  • 5.5 seconds rate of fire

Springalds (Non-Clocktower Version/Non-Rus Version):

  • 200 HP, 240 HP with Siege Works
  • 30 Damage per shot plus 90 extra damage (Bonus is not mitigated by armor) vs Siege for a total of 112 or 109 damage per shot vs Siege (Depending on Siege Works)
  • Armor is irrelevant since it won’t protect vs Siege damage
  • 10 Range, 12 Range with roller-shutter trigger
  • 0.93 tiles per second movement speed
  • 4 seconds rate of fire, 3 seconds with roller-shutter trigger

You need 3 springalds to one tap a single Mangonel with or without Siege Works. You need 4 springalds to one tap a NOB with Siege Works and 3 to one tap a NOB without Siege Works. You have up to 25% increased range on enemy siege, you’re faster than the mangonels by a noticeable margin, and you keep up with the NOB while being able to micro away from their salvo because of high base speed combined with greased wheels. You fire twice in the time it takes a mango to fire once and you fire about 25% faster than a NOB.

You need 8 (EIGHT) mangonels shooting at once to take out a springald with a one tap. You can also use formations to spread them out even more so at best a Mangonel one tap would only take out 2-3 springalds. By the time Mangos get in range to fire off, Springalds would have effectively shot twice.

You need 3 NOB’s ENTIRE VOLLEY to land to one tap a single springald, and the NOB volley comes out over the period of time of like a second. Again you can use spread formation to spread them out even more and micro units being targeted forward or backwards to mess up the NOB’s damage output and increase the amount needed to guarantee to 4 or even 5. You’re still outranging the NOB with springalds and you’re just as fast as them. You can get the first shot in and by the time they even start firing their first salvo, you’re taking your second shot and can micro backwards.

They all cost 3 pop, mango and NOB cost 600 resources, springald cost 500.

In other words, git gud and start building outposts for vision before you start complaining about “muh fog mean I can’t hit them!!!” lmao

4 Likes

If the defenders of the status quo could for a single second stop treating this as a “gitgud” topic, would they mind explaining what the downside of nerfing mangonels and nest of bees would be?

It’s all very well to say “build masses of springalds” but how does Age of Empires IV benefit from having so much of the late game meta oriented around siege units? Is having to build masses of springalds to deal with the threat of masses of mangonel actually enjoyable to do, or to watch? Is it adding to the vibrancy of late game unit compositions – or is it taking away from it? I’d argue the latter. Having to devote so much of your population to these units means fewer units of other types. The threat of mangonels makes infantry heavy compositions very risky. It can’t be ignored that despite there being so many units available late game a lot of people are building compositions that are as dull as “Knight + Mangonel”.

No-one is saying that mangonels are insurmountable. They can be beaten. But is it fun? Is it benefitting the game? Personally I think the game would improve if mangonels weren’t able to do quite so much damage quite so fast, and I think the game would improve if countering siege didn’t revolve so heavily around building one specific unit.

“Just do X” isn’t a counter-argument to this.

1 Like
  1. Mangos and NoB is a way for a player who is already behind to turn the tide against a player who has either mass infantry or mass archers.

Lets say you just lost a battle significantly, so you are down to like 2 or 3 archers/crossbows remaining while your enemy has 12 and 5 spears. Few of them are a bit damaged. So what do you do to counter them? a. You could build horsemen or knights but your enemy would just counter them with spears. b. mass m@a it would take you like 2 mins to build up a mass to counter that. or c. you could build 1 mango to make them think twice of assaulting your base while you build up another army behind that mango.

In short downside is that you would see spear+archers in almost every damn game and is only soft countered by mass m@a. Also it means that if you loose a large battle against such comp there would be no way to bounce back thus make the game very boring and be just 1 decisive battle and ends there.

  1. Mangos are decent against buildings thus it is a way of forcing your enemy to fight and get out of their base and stop a turtle fest where its just mass towers.

  2. Mangos along with other AoE units encourages loose formation thus giving the game more dimension.

  3. Im too lazy to add more.

People were saying Siege Spam is OP and cannot be countered, not that it’s just un-fun. The math proves it can be countered quite easily and a hell of a lot more resource efficient. Don’t want 100 pop mangonel fights? Build springalds. They’ll either lose by keep making mangos or they’ll get gud and actually have diverse armies to contest a mass army of springalds. If you don’t like playing against people that refuse to stop spamming mangos when you’re literally destroying them with springs and winning the game easily, win more games and face better players.

Siege is an integral part of the gameplay and its rock paper scissors mechanic. Without siege stuff like Streltsy and Handcannonners would go mental in the late game. If someone is literally building just mangos to your infantry ball, pull your infantry back and spam out a few more springs and slowly chip down mango after mango. Play it right and you’ll not lose a single unit worth of resources while they lose several up to a dozen or two. It’s fully a “git gud” issue.

You also have multiple ways to outplay Mangos where each Mango only deals 36 damage which involves actually making use of formations to spread your units out further apart or literally just microing your units. Walk forward, when the catapult fires, walk backwards. Most of the shot will miss because Mangos use target prediction when firing so you can avoid its damage. Same thing for the NOB.

If you want to do nothing but a-move a 120 pop infantry ball into another 120 pop infantry ball and just watch the AI duke it out, do your thing baby, I support you, but that doesn’t mean you’re not playing incorrectly and it doesn’t mean the siege complaint is valid in any way, shape, or form from a gameplay balance perspective since you’re intentionally ignoring the designed and tested counters and strategies the game offers you.

2 Likes

Increasing siege pop will fix a lot of issues. The more siege you have the less tropes you can make to defend it.

2 Likes

i wouldnt mind a siege cap tbh

I’d even give them friendly fire to area siege, just so the tears don’t keep falling from their eyes.

It’s really odd that you’re responding to someone suggesting mangonels be weakened but acting as if they are arguing mangonels should be removed. Strawman much?

It is my contention that mangonels are more than good enough to fill the role you depict. That they could still provide a defence to early/mid game infantry masses without being so damned oppressive against infantry in the late game. A common suggeston is that mangonel supply cost should be increased. This would affect their viability in the end game, but not in the early to mid game which seems to be your concern. I also think that mangonels would still be a very strong unit even if their DPS was reduced.

I see literally no evidence to suggest that the game is on the cusp of being 120 v 120 infantry battles (as @SouthernSage854 suggests), and overtuned mangonels are the only thing holding back the tide. Aside from everything else why would heavy cavalry suddenly disappear from the meta?

@Adribird90 It’s a real shame that discussions like this are always dominated by people that cannot help themselves but demean those they are arguing against.

3 Likes

Handcanoneers beat heavy cavalry to my knowledge and that’s the reason why. Especially if you throw in just a few meatshields in the front to tank damage. Late game it’s all about pop efficiency, not resource efficiency. Without siege to counter-act, infantry battles become the way to go about it. You can make arguments for increasing the pop requirement for siege and I’m totally fine with that, I’m just firing against the idea that siege is somehow overpowered, broken, or that mass siege has no counter like the thread has been about the entire time. Even if you increase the pop requirement for siege the truth of the matter is that you’re still going to see a lot of siege, especially in team games where population isn’t as hard of a cap as it is in 1v1 where even the OP admits that siege is not a problem in of itself.

In other words,
“Siege should have a higher pop requirment” a-okay, I support you even if I don’t necessarily agree with increasing their pop cap atm
“Siege is overpowered and needs massive nerfs or a cap or removed or etc etc etc” git gud

Simple.

Springalds = siege deterrent.

Make springalds cheaper and train faster. Let them be trained from archery range.

1 Like

If you nerf them they wont be as effective. Mangos are supposed to be oppressive against infantry and archer combo. Nerf mangos and youll indirectly buff infantry and archers which are really strong already. Increase their supplies and you wont have enough spears to screen them in late game. 3 pops is fine.

If you have a hardtime fighting against them try using them in quick match and see how opponents counter your mangos and after maybe 5 games youll see how to counter them properly.

Siege is still a massive problem and needs to either be nerfed or make a much stronger counter to them. Like culverns In aoe 3 that can blast other artillery if your enemy just tries to build tons of cannons. In aoe 4 such a counter does not exist . And spingalds do not cut it imo especially against bombards and nest of bees. So just saying git gud to dismiss people’s complaints that are perfectly legitimate is just stupid

Bombards don’t deal splash damage, they are 1 unit only damage if you use them against infantry or other siege. You have the math above for Nest of Bee vs Springald. It’s not even close where you could argue that the math betrays reality, the difference between them in all respects is definite proof that springalds deal with NOBs and Mangos.

Are you talking about me? Sorry for being tired of hearing that there are players who hate using use siege in the late game.

where is the abuse of the siege?, put the minutes, if you find :wink:
You should respect the rules and not make so many threads on the same topic; if you tell me the minute of the siege abuse thank you

I don’t think a cap is the right solution. Firstly, because siege can be built on the field it would still be a matter of who has the most infantry to rebuild lost units, or else a siege workshop proxy battle to see who can have theirs replenished the fastest.

And besides that, the micro of the proper siege to have. If it’s limited why not just max spring ALDS to ensure you always keep your opponents siege down?

Changing pop sizes could absolutely be a thing. Not sure how it would work, but it’s something to consider.