Germany general post

You asked for it, you have it. Post all your stuff about Germany, Prussia, Austria, HRE and derivatives here.

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Might as well add this before someone inevitably adds the typical crappy poll with only bad options.

How do you want (or not want) a German split?

  • Austria (reskin or rework of Germans) + Prussia (new)
  • Prussia (rework of Germans) + Austria (new)
  • Current Germans (HRE) + One other German state (Austria, Prussia, Switzerland, etc)
  • Current Germans (HRE) + Multiple other German states (Austria, Prussia, Switzerland, etc)
  • No changes
  • I’m just sick of hearing about this / don’t care
0 voters
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Continuing the discussion from Austria & Germany poll:

There are 2 AI entities in the game. When you choose 1vs2 or 2v1 a green AI entity appears. Those are the Sisilians. Their name is only shown if you defeat them. He says: “The Sicilians have been defeated”
Screenshot (144)

They do not appear in the campaign (as far as I remember).

Finally someone did a proper poll on this matter.

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My vote for 1 civ where you evolve from HRE to Habsburg domination and Austro-Hungary at Imperial age, together with evolving Prussia to German Empire. Kinda similar to Mexico with early revolutions or unique age ups.

However, I believe that it might be wiser to keep the current Germans as it is for conservative and ‘no I dont want the split’ players and giving 2 variation civs with unique Homecity, AI personality and gameplay can be more beneficial.

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There is absolutely no chance in Hell that they add Prussians as an independent standalone playable civ.

And it’s a very good thing that they don’t.

Prussia will be a revolt from Poles, Germans and/or Swedes and that’s the best you’ll ever get.

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Since this is a general post I am actually be a little bold and put this here.

Introducing Prussia

Napoleonic Wars

No, it isn’t an official change but if everyone used it then it would be as if it was.

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That never happened. Why would they add an entirely fictional event?

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Poland i can … kinda understand what with beeing a former vassal to the PLC and then well, carving it up and becoming a german elector, but that is rather not revolutionary.

Yeah, prussia is not a revolutionary civ especially not for the german side of things.

Arguably if one would want a “german revolutionary” CIV switzerland kinda fills that vacuum with the modern 1848 state but even that is arguable due to the timeline of separation out of the HRE,

You should add an option where the various states people want are revolutions, similar to the French revolution in design. This is the most probable way this would be implemented anyways. Germany revolutions are boring anyways.

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Well historically, the German revolutionary civ should be Germany. Pan-Germanism was a major driver of the 1848 revolutions. It’s just tricky when there’s already an umbrella German civ.

The name doesn’t really matter. It’s the mechanics that do.

I don’t think I can change it without resetting the poll.

I also wouldn’t consider that to be a German split. That’s just a major overhaul of the existing Germans. And frankly, it’s not a good approach since it is the opposite of history and offends both the people who want an actual split and the people who want German gameplay to be preserved.

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There is an argument that the German civ isn’t really that Prussian because the main references are: the home city, AI, royal guard units, and some cards, and that none of these are integral to gameplay. While true that removing or reskinning all of these wouldn’t affect the civ in matches, this ignores that there is much more to the game and civs than rote mechanics.

  • The home city is the core asset and mechanic that AOE3 revolves around. For Germans, this is Berlin, the Brandenburg-Prussian, later German capital. It is literally the face and intended representation of the civ. If the Germans were remade into Austria, the HC would have to be replaced with Vienna, with buildings like St. Stephen’s and Schönbrunn. The central mechanic and theme for the Germans would be effectively removed and replaced.

  • The AI leader personality, which is the main way ~90% to 95% of players interact with the civ, is the most well-known Prussian King. The vast majority of players are single player, and when they interact with the civ, they are used to hearing quips from Fredy the Great mocking their bratwurst and biergartens.

  • Both Royal Guard units are well-known and clearly-identified Prussian units, particularly the needle gunner, which played a huge role in defeating the Austrians in the Silesian wars. Uhlans were historically called Czapka Uhlans in-game, which is just a generic term for their hat, but the change to Prussian Uhlans clearly indicates the devs’ intention to increase references to Prussia in the civ

  • House of Hohenzollern card was until recently Teutonic town centers, which is a reference to the Teutonic order in Prussia.

And all this ignores the many, many aspects of Germans that are largely unconnected to the Habsburgs/Austria/HRE empire or were used across the HRE. Concerning the HRE, while the monarchy was dominated by Habsburgs, the governance very much wasn’t. Just look at the Treaty of Westphalia and the Siege of Vienna; the principalities only went along with the emperor when it suited them. Things that are HRE related but not Austria or Habsburg include War Wagons (Bohemian whose greatest use historically was against the Emperor), Doppelsoldners (used by all German states), Palatine Settlements (the Rhine Palitinate), Circle Army (the HRE Kreise system, which relied on 10 organized groups of German states), Prince-Electors (mostly very non-Austrian electors), etc etc. if the civ were reskinned as Austria, by the same argument all these would need to change or become German-type civ standards, cheapening the civ .

There is so much more to a civ than gameplay. Prussian elements are integral; they are things that have been attached to the civ since 2005. Renaming and reskinning everything that is non-Austrian or non-Habsburg in game would destroy the character of the civ. The gameplay might not change, but it wouldn’t feel or look like the same civ anymore.

The fact of the matter is that Germans are the Germans in game for very good reasons. The civ has elements of Prussia, Austria,and the greater HRE, and is better because of it, and it’s something that the devs have continued to reinforce. For the vast majority of the AOE3 period, thinking of them as distinctly separate was nonsense; leading up to the modern German state in the 1840s-1860s, it was a debate between a Prussia lead Germany (kleindeutschland) or Austria (grossdeutschland). It was a question of which king would win, not if they were German.

From the inclusion of new cards like prince electors to the renaming of Czapka Uhlans to Prussian Uhlans to the outright statements of devs saying “covered by Germans”, it’s been made very clear that it is intendend and a split will not happen. And that is a good thing, because what we have is good.

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If the game were accurate in its general german representation neither berlin would be the home city nor would all the royal guard units be prussian though, since southern germany and the rhine aswell as the hanseatic league all were vastly more relevant than Berlin or prussia for the most of the games timeframe though.

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I didn’t say the Prussian elements were trivial. Surely the Germans civ is more Prussian than say Bavarian. The ratio is “HRE stuff that applies to most German states in 15th-17th” >>> Prussia > Austria > the rest.

I’m talking about how easy it is to separate out the Prussian part. The thing is the Prussia part is not very related to the rest, and can be extended to a full civ on its own. Brandenburg-Prussia’s role in the thirty years war was marginal. When Prussia really became a major power HRE was already effectively non-functional.

And they are not integral to the gameplay. You will not see the leader when you play the civ yourself. If the leader has a different set of lines it would not change how the civ plays. Not to mention Fredrick the Great in-game does not have many lines that allude to Prussia but “German”. I would not feel any difference if they are read by say Charles V. You can rename the home city. The layout of the home city is generic (like all old home cities) and has no particular Berlin landmark. These are all very superficial.

Uhlan was common in most German states and also Poland and Russia. And “needle gunner” would not be a different unit if you call it something else. In fact it being a less impressive RG with only one hp buff card does not align with Prussia’s good skirmishers.

These are “recent” changes (because they come from the past 2 major changes). And all are again superficial changes can easily be changed again like “macehuatin” without any affect on gameplay.
I think it’s safe to say the original Germans civ is not very Prussian. Of course they tried to make it more Prussian which I don’t personally like. But even with those the representation is still quite shallow.

A typical impression of Prussia should be good line infantry, grenadiers and skirmishers. Not late renaissance landsknechts or Hussite war wagons.

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No one is saying that. There’s no denying the Prussian references. The point is that they’re all very superficial and easy to transfer to their own civ with no gameplay impact. If you tried to do the opposite and remove Austrian references you would have to radically change core elements of the civ.

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If Austrian refers to Habsburgs = HRE then yes. But people usually talk about Germans of that time period as a “Habsburg monarchy/HRE” and “Protestant League”, and rarely separates out Austria even if it is a major Habsburg holding.
Like Wallenstein, Count Tilly, landsknechts, black reiters, etc. all belong to the HRE faction but we rarely consider them as “Austrian”.

For THE Austria proper or Austria-Hungary, the one that rivals Prussian in the 18th century when HRE had de facto disintegrated, I actually find even fewer references. The only one is “Spanish riding school”. Many of its units and entities are given to the Hungarian revolution.

Doppelsoldners and the church card.

In the context of removing Austrian references (or at least things that aren’t Prussian compatible) to make Germany into Prussia it would take a lot. Doppelsoldners, Settler Wagons, Black Riders, Church cards, etc are all very compatible with Austria and not at all with Prussia.

But yeah, in terms of things that are exclusively Austrian there isn’t a huge amount so I could have phrased that better.

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