Germany, history, Austria and Prussia

They weren’t HRE, but Germans ruled. If you want to claim that they are not German, you will have to answer this.

Teutonic is one of the words that means German, and the Principality of Prussia is born from the Teutonic Knights’ Protestant conversion.

I didnt say they are not German.
The Teutonic order came to the region in 1225, the duchy of Prussia came to be in 1525. The merger with Brandenburg was in 1618, Prussia was still a Polish fief at this time. That’s almost 400 years of not being in the HRE for the Prussians, all the while being surrounded by Poland. That’s a long time of German heritage being mixed with neighbouring culture. Id say them being as German as the Germans in the HRE is quite unlikely.

And that protestantism is another thing that firmly places them in opposition to the Habsburg Emperors.

This commentary of yours describes exactly the thinking of some players who wanted DE to be an exact copy of the EP’s changes. Any possible change was seen as the destruction of the game.
Today we can see that DE is a success, and the countless changes in either balance or design were beneficial to the game.
Every game needs changes and news to keep the audience’s attention. The EP itself was a change from the RE and that was necessary at the time.

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Maybe to you. To me aoe3 is fun.

Yes, DE is here. If you want to make new civs that’s fine by me, just don’t remove germany.

I’m sorry but as far as I understand DE was made for the fans of AOE3. Thus it makes sense that it caters to those who kept playing it all this time, and these are the people that you are describing. I’m all for new things, just don’t remove stuff.

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My proposal doesnt remove it though? It changes it.

How many new German civilizations do you want?
  • Two: Austrians and Prussians
  • One: Austrians or Prussians
  • No change

0 voters

Here it’s about transforming the Napoleonic Era mod into a new DLC. This mod adds, among others: Prussians and Austrians. Germany is still there. It is also an option for the broadest and best German representation in the game.

I’m all for adding, but no changing.

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Prussia should be added in the same DLC as Poland.
Poland ( Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth) is a must have civilisation in AoE3 (and AoE2).
Poland would get Uhlans and Hussars of course. (Maybe Home City only ships Uhlans but you can only train Hussars and they are both upgraded together.)

Those two civilisations would work well together for a campaign. Having Poland fight against Austria, Prussia, Russia, the Ottomans and Sweden.

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To say that the Prussians cannot belong to the Germans because they belong to Poland is like saying that the Netherlands was part of Spain and should not appear.

Ive been trying to make the point that Prussia was a mix between German and Polish culture, creating its own thing that should be represented as its own Civilization in the game.
I don’t know how you come to these conclusions.

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I explained for you why Prussia should be included in the Germans, but you seem to want to ignore my words just because I don’t agree with you.

Even if the Prussian Principality did not belong to the HRE, they were ruled by the Germans, and they unioned with Brandenburg and became the HRE’s second force. And, crucially, the Prussian kingdom is the predecessor of the German Empire. Why on earth should they become a new civilization apart from the Germans?

Once again I explain to you, Whether they embraced the Polish culture that was dominated by Poland, Prussia were ruled by the Germans and eventually became the German Empire.

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The idea of “Germany” is a 19th century invention, AoE3 mostly takes part before that.
With the Dutch there is already a second German civilisation in the game but no one thinks that’s wrong because they are a different country today.
Even the word Dutch comes from “Deutsch” which is the German word for German and was originally used for all Germans in English.

Purssia and Austria where both 2 of the 5 major powers in Europe during the time of the Napoleonic wars till World War One. Joining them doesn’t make any sense and any Europe focused game on this time frame has them separate.

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In the first place this is a game, so it’s hard to hope for a perfect historical research. If they want a complete historical, they have to delete the British LB and Portuguese organ guns.

In addition, the concept of upgrading the era should also be deleted and the era should proceed automatically. But why doesn’t anybody ask to do so?

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Constantly repeating that they are German doest not equal an explanation.

The German Empire was founded after the timespan of the game. The Germans in Aoe3 are based mostly on the HRE in the 17th century and before. In that time period Prussia was an up and coming state, as you can see on the map I posted earlier, it reached its full potential (for the time period) in 1795 with the last partition of Poland. Prussia fought under its own name and flag, frankly aoe3 is the only instance where I ever saw them included in the HRE. It gained a lot of territory after Napoleons defeat, but then the HRE was dissolved and replaced by the German confederation and a new time period started. In the time period of the game Prussia was an independant nation that acted on its own and often against the HRE. It was powerfull enough to be considered its own power and was refered to as such. What happened years later does not factor in how they should be represented in a game set in another time period.

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The fall of Poland and the dissolution of HRE are at different times. Poland perished before the HRE was dissolved, and Prussia was then a member of HRE. I can’t understand why you are asking for a complete historical search to AOE3. Unless it is a simulator, it is not easy to want a perfect testimony in a game. What’s more, you seem to be deliberately ignoring the fact that Prussia belonged to HRE until Napoleon dismantled it. What do you think about this?

Once again you fail to properly read what I said. I never said that happened at the same time.

Historical accuracy is important to me. Perfection is impossible but inaccuracies can be removed.

The brandenburg part was in the HRE, The Prussian part was outside of it. The Prussians held the title of Elector but never ruled the HRE. That is why both Frederick and Berlin are unsuited to represent the HRE. The emperors in the time period where almost exclusively Austrian Habsburgs that mostly ruled from Vienna. One of them is much better suited to represent the HRE, even when the Prussian units remain in the faction. Which they shouldnt because Prussia rarely cooperated with the HRE and in fact often opposed it.

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If historical accuracy hurts the fun of the game, I think you should be able to deliberately ignore it. It’s like the British LB or the Portuguese organ gun.

If you want a complete history for the game, it’s better to do Paradox’s EU series. Efforts to separate Prussia from the Germans simply create another Europe that plagiarized Germany.

You must admit that historically, Prussia is also German, and they were part of the HRE because of their domination of Brandenburg. If you only want Prussia, you have to reveal the unique characteristics of Prussia, not completely neither Poland nor HRE, but it is difficult for Prussia after the Middle Ages to save that part no matter how hard they try. There is nothing left of them except for a connection with Germany.

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That is true.

And this is not, Prussia originated in the middle ages but came to full power in the period after the 30 years war. Elector Frederick William got rid of unreliable mercenary forces and created a proffesional disciplined standing army. This disciplined army is what people think of these days when you mention Prussia. His succesors only further improved the Prussian army.

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Professional standing forces were pursued by all Europe. It is not unique to Prussia. You should start by defining the characteristics that only Prussia can have.

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Wrong franchise for you.
Stay also away from Stronghold and Total War, as both have always had a “gameplay over accuracy” approach.

Historical accurate games would be brutally obnoxious to play, as you would literally have power stripped away from you, when you are supposed to lose for “historical reasons”.

I much rather have a sandbox with a loose connection to historical elements, than a simulation.

Death’s Head Hussars, as the best Hussars in the game, but very expensive to the point that they cannot be massed in Colonial, and Royal Guard unit.

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Hessian Jaegers as replacement to base Skirmishers, still worse than the Mercenary Jaeger, and one of the only 2 options at the Barracks, as a Royal Guard Skirmisher.

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Prussian Fusiliers as the Musketeer replacement and one of only 2 options at the Barracks, with less HP than Regular Musks, slower, but a stronger Hand and Siege attack, to compensate for no Pikemen.

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Note: I am against adding Prussians as a seperate civ, but it could be done, even though I think Polish and Italians would be better, since the Germans civ already has plenty prussian in it…