Germany, history, Austria and Prussia

Just last month I posted a topic about a potential rework of the German civ ( it currently is in aoe3DE. In the topic I stated several reasons why the current Germany doesnt properly represent anything and is apparantly a weird mix of Austia, the HRE german states and Prussia. I advocated for removing the Prussian part and letting Germany represent the HRE under the Habsburg Austrians, trying (and perhaps failing) to retain as much of the gameplay as possbile while requiring as few new gameplay models as possible. I tried to rework it so that no new 3d models where required.
I got a lot of feedback and got myself thinking and dreaming further. I came up with new plans that might be more appealing to some and perhaps less to others, hope to hear your thoughts.
The plan is simple, take the current Germany and takes what makes it HRE and what makes it Prussian and divide that in 2 new civs Germany and Prussia. Where germany wil represent the more old fashioned Habsburgs and the HRE and Prussia a more modern state. Germany has some historical expertise being split in two I heard :stuck_out_tongue:
In this topic I will go over all base aspects of the current Germany and assign that aspect to either Germany or Prussia.

But first I will shortly state what the base idea of each civ rework is:

Germany will represent the HRE under the Austrian Habsburgs, I will retain the mercenary focus of the civ and the diverse units from across the Empire. It is more old fashioned than the Prussians
Prussia is historically known for its disciplined army, line infantry and grenadiers it foccuses more on modern troops than the Germans. unlike Germany it will have Grenadiers available in the artillery foundry.

The only thing in this plan that will require new art, modelling and voice-acting. A new AI leaderhead is needed for Germany seeing as Frederick will obviously lead Prussia. Then a new home city is needed for either Germany or Prussia.
Ferdinand I is chosen as the representative of Germany. Ferdinand I was the brother of Charles V as succeeded him as Holy Roman Emperor while the Spanish parts of his Empire went to his son Philip. Ferdinand is credited with defending his realm against the Ottomans and making it somewhat more cohesive, quite the accomplishement considering what the HRE was and that the reformation was underway. No conflicting rulerships aswell as with his brother who also ruled Spain and the Netherlands.

1.Receive Uhlans with each shipment
The German ability is a confusing one. As many people will be eager to point out Uhlans are Polish light cavalry. However they later became a common type of cavalry on the European battlefields as heavy cavalry began to fade out. In that way Uhlans should basically be in every European civ or be saved for a Polish civ. However if we look at Prussia we see that the nation was located on the nothern border of Poland even paying vassalage to the Polish king at some point.
The uniform the Uhlans are wearing is considered Prussian these days and herein we can see the Polish influence on the state in its earlier days. Therefore the German ability is moved to the Prussians.
A new German ability is then needed for the Germans I have some ideas that can be used but the dear readers may have even better ideas.

  • Mercenary shipments contain more troops and can be send twice.
  • Military shipments can be send twice.
  • Military shipments contain more units.
    three similar ideas I know :frowning: But at least they still somewhat resemble the old German ability instead of being completely new.

Also since Germany will lose the Uhlan it can now build Hussar in the stable instead.

2. The Settler wagon
The Settler wagon is basically a dude with a cart and mule. The clothing he wears appears to be Bavarian and is therefore in the HRE Germany territory. However in the interest of not changin the OG german playstyle too much, and because its just a fun unit to use. I see no problem letting Prussia retain it as well. The settler wagon will be a shared unique unit in both civs in my vision.

3. Doppelsoldner
Doppelsoldner historically are Landsknecht mercenaries armed with a two handed sword or a halberd. The strange overlap with the landsknecht mercenary ingame (who should wield a pike) will be ignored here for a later date. The first landsknecht units were said to be raised by Habsburg Emperor Maximillian I.This combined with the design goal to make Germany the more old fashioned faction the Doppelsoldner will be unique to the German barracks.
Prussia will receive Musketeers to compensate.

4. War Wagons
Hussite horse-drawn wagon outfitted with cannon
The War wagon is Bohemian Czech. Many Habsburg emperors were also king of Bohemia and it is firmly inside the HRE. It is also a more old fashioned unit being used in the hussite wars 1419-1434. Therefore it is firmly placed in the German civ.
Prussia will receive the Dragoon in its place.

5.Home city cards:
Going over each and every card will take a long time and many cards like the crate cards are easily put in both civs.
It is easily done to remove cards that affect units the civs will no longer have and to add ones that do, many other can get a simple name change and be usable by the civ that it originally didnt refer to. Like the Germantown farmer card that can be copied exactly as is to the Prussian and then be renamed to refer Prussia. Something like “Potato King” since Frederick the Great so succesfully integrated Potatoes in Prussian agriculture.
The church card can stay as is for the Germans. but the Prussians will need a completely new one, since the old one references the HRE and its commanders almost exclusively. Prussia should probably receive upgrades to their line-infantry here.

6.Royal Guard units
Prussia has the Uhlan (Czapka Uhlan) and the skirmisher (Prussian Needle Gunner) just like the current Germany has. The HRE Germany has the Hussar (name pending, Magyar? Croat?) and the skirmisher (Landwehr) so as not to change too much in this regard.

in conclusion:

Led by Ferdinand I from the home city of Vienna
Focussed on Mercenaries and more old fashioned units like the doppelsoldner and war wagon.

Led by Frederick the Great from the home city of Berlin
Focussed more on modern military like muskets and Grenadiers and using their free Uhlans.

what are your thoughts?
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I think it would be better to include more of the culture and history of the German cultural sphere rather than trying to subdivide the Germans.

Anyway, the German motif of AOE3 is all countries of HRE. It was not made with a specific German country as a motif.

The ideas that the community is having are valid, have theoretical foundation and precision and new content is what keeps a game alive. This is not to say that the changes need to be exactly as someone proposed.
I know more people who play aoe3DE and who would also love changes in German civilization, including some of them having mentioned ideas similar to this and the last topics, but they just don’t like to go to the forum, so no one gets to know the opinions.

A really interesting post. I agree with you. I will add a few ideas from myself:

Prussians (assume that they are the successors of the present Germans):

  • Ruler: Frederick II the Great

  • New flag (German flag refreshed from original AoE 3)

  • Royal Guard units: Skirmisher (Prussian Needle Gunner - have Pickelhaube), Dragoon (Prussian Dragoner)

  • Uhlan should be described as being Polish - very Polish appearance of the unit

  • Receive Uhlans with Home City shipments (except TEAM ones) from Colonial Age and beyond (mercenary shipments contain more units instead) but Home City shipments require +10% XP to be earned

  • Starts with three Settler Wagons

  • Settler Wagons remains

  • Revolutions: Gran Colombia and Argentina

  • have the Hessian Jäger

  • new unit: Riesen Garde

Germans (either HRE or Habsburgs)

  • New ruler: Ferdinand I or Maria Theresa

  • The current flag of the Germans

  • Royal Guard units: Musketeer (Grenz infantry), Hussar (Magyar Hussar)

  • Doppelsoldner and the War Wagon for the Germans

  • possess Goralen (equivalent to Coureur des Bois)

  • new unit: Slavonian Pandur

  • Revolutions: Hungary and Romania

  • new building: Gasthaus (improved Austrian Saloon) - cheaper and less populous mercenaries


To be honest, the Germans should have got the Death’s Head Hussar, not the Uhlan, but I do not think another germanic civ should be added to the game.

It can be solved by the Wing Hussar card having a new art and name.

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I like the Idea of adding Prussia as a new country while keeping Germany as its.
I would even go so far and change nothing about the gameplay of Germany.
Still having Uhlans, still having all the same cards and units. Uhlans where used in Austria too, they still have a tank named Uhlan today.
Germany is a fun civilisation to play and should stay like this.
Only renaming the few Prussia related things.

Prussia gets Uhlans too plus Dragoons.
Prussia unique unit is a Musketeer that gets higher rate of fire with every update instead of more damage but has bad melee.
Prussia used a conical touch hole that increased the rate of fire with the cost of being less accurate and lower velocity. (The concept is drilling a bigger touch hole so a bit of powder comes out and you can directly fire instead of having to ad some more powder on the pan). And later they were the first to adopt a breach loading rifle on a large scale with the famous needle gunners. The needle guns weren’t used for Skirmisher but for line infantry.
Rate of fire is:
Base: 3.0
Veteran: 2.5 = 1.2x DPM
Guard: 2.0 = 1.25x Veteran and 1.5x Base DPM
So effectively the same number as normal upgrades.
Imperial and home city card buffs have to be adjusted to make the higher rate of fire not increase the DPM too much. Giving 50% higher attack in Imperial would be stronger for this unit.

Royal Guard unit are the Grenadiers. The Line Infantry gets the Fire Rate buff so Royal guard is not needed.

Economic bonus is Coureur des Bois instead of Settlers from the Home City reflecting the Huguenots immigrants. They should be renamed to Huguenots.

Other than that they will be very average.
Pikeman and Crossbows.
Normal Artillery.

Maybe new unit:
Teutonic Knight (maybe melee cavalry that is strong against other cavalry instead of an infantry) . Unique archaic infantry unit that doesn’t get guard upgrades and has high melee resistance. Making up for the bad melee of the other unique unit in early game. Later Dragoons can do the job.
This would make their Commerce Age more interesting.

I don’t know how after 15 years the developers didn’t find the right flag of Preußen to put it in the game…

Indeed, and Prussia falls outside of that cultural sphere in this time peroid and was not in the HRE.

That’s a pity, if more voices are heard change will come sooner.

Fine ideas, but Im hesistant for all new units. I’d rather see that work go into all new civs.

A change like that to the Uhlan and then a change to the Prussian elements in the civ would work as well.

Could work indeed. But the Uhlan as it is appears way to Prussian to work in a HRE German civ imo. Liking the Prussian idea. The needle gun idea is interesting, historically it had less range than the rifles of its opponents but still outdid them on the battlefield. Perhaps Denmark can then have a longer range musket to mirror the history here.

No need for the flag if you don’t have the civ I guess eh?

You do realize that the Death’s Head Hussar was the Prussian Elite Cavalry force, in the Napoleonic era, right?

If anything, what I said would make the civ more Prussian, and thus more fitting to represent both the HRE and Prussia at the same time.

I didnt realize that, that is my bad.

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It is OK, but since they are supposed to also include the Prussians, it would still be mor accurate than Uhlans.

For a game that introduced so many Unique Units for all civs, because it wanted to be more accurate than AoE2, AoE3 managed to pull off some of the goofiest design decisions a historical game ever made.

Also including Prussia in an HRE civ is strange design. The original Prussian lands are not even in the HRE, not until the merge with Brandenburg in 1618.
Having Prussia and Austria being represented by the same civ is like having an US civ with confederate units. Prussia and Austria where rival states foremost, struggling over control over the German states. During the HRE era which the game is centered around the control was Austrian. It was not until the collapse of the HRE in 1806 that Prussia began to gain the upper hand which led to the Austrian exclusion when the German finally unified.

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That is because AoE works more with umbrella civs, rather than spcific countries. The Germans are an umbrealla of ALL germanic countries in the period.

They only ever go specific in cases that really need it, such has having both Spanish and Portuguese, instead of just Iberians, because both civs were not only massively important for the period, but also massively different in their approach to colonization, and societal structure.

The British also inclusde Scoland, for example, and the Russians also include Tatar units and Cossacks (Ukranian).

The Indians are the Mughals, but also have Persian, Bengali and other Hindu units, cards and techs, aswell as references to the British Raj (their Ships are all Western).

This is the way AoE games have always been.

If you want specific countries, then Cossacks 3 is a great game, and goes more along nationalities than broad civilization groups.

If they actually made a US civ, and wanted to cover the Civil War period, I have no doubt they would actually include some Confederate units for the Multiplayer. They are still americans, afterall.

In AoE2 that is true, in Aoe3 the Europeans are very much nations. With their flag waving everywhere and getting support from their home city/governement.

The British fly the king’s colours, representing both England and Scotland. Ingame the only Scottish reference besides the flag is some mercenaries I believe?
Cossacks and Tatars are from Russia as well.
From the 16th to 19th centuries, Russian Cossacks played a key role in the expansion of the Russian Empire into Siberia (particularly by Yermak Timofeyevich), the Caucasus, and Central Asia. Cossacks also served as guides to most Russian expeditions of civil and military geographers and surveyors, traders, and explorers. In 1648, the Russian Cossack Semyon Dezhnyov discovered a passage between North America and Asia. Cossack units played a role in many wars in the 17th, 18th, and 19th centuries, including the Russo-Turkish Wars, the Russo-Persian Wars, and the annexation of Central Asia

The Indian faction is a horrible historical mess indeed.

A great game indeed. But I personally like the AoE3 gameplay more.

It was just a silly example. But the Confederacy would be more suited as a revolution for a US civ I think.

The game is meant to be firstly and most of all fun and not historically accurate. This has been the case for each Age installment and continues with AOE3. Thus the civ uses historical references but is mostly intended to be interesting and fun to play.

The goal of DE is to continue support of AOE3 and add new content, not completely change the original content. This is a bad idea and should be dismissed, as it would ruin the base game that most of the playerbase knows and loves.

I agree with that comment. Many people want to make AOE3 Napoleon Era or WOL.

I would take the native aproach with germany and other emergent nations.

All native civs have age 2 or 3 shipments that involve calling upon other tribes support. These shipments cost resources and in time give you units and also buffs for that unit type.

So lets take germany as an example. Imagine having cards representing the german kingdoms that eventualy came to form the german empire: Saxon support, Bavarian Support, Hanover, etc.

This way you can keep the german flavor while keeping Prusia as the main german state. Then you can switch around stuff to make Austria as the one who has an early HRE flavor.

Prussia has been a German culture since the time the Teutonic Knights occupied it. They weren’t part of the HRE, but they were already in the Germans because the Germans ruled it. And with the existence of Brandenburg and the emergence of Berlin as the primary capital of the Germans, they must be regarded as Germans.

Historical accuracy is fun though?

When you add new content the game does not get changed? The original game is still available on steam.

Originally Teutonic mixed over time with Baltic and Polish culture, the Prussians were outsiders until the merger with Brandenburg. Berlin wasnt the capital of Germany until 1871, that is beyond the game’s time span.

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