I think 400F 250G will be good.
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It seems a cheap tech for a huge power. However, the goal of Turks changed this way is have a huge power in a short time. Like a super aggressive play until you have gold, to die in the moment it runs out.
So I guess it can work.
Also in TG should be balanced being stil weaker that palas
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It will be more expensive than Stirrups, however. Slightly.
So it can workā¦ Bulgarians affecting 3 units, this UT just 2
And effect of Stirrups is much, much bigger.
Moreover Stirrups affects the same units. All cavalry, same upgrades.
In this case CA and knights require very different techsā¦ so it is difficult that you have both units running in castle age. In practice it will affect just one unit
Turks actualy use both Hussars and Heavy Camels a lot.
Turks do use their Cavalry, and they do Knight Rush.
Sorry if I link this post here, I know itās off topic, but itās something important in my opinion and that deserves more attention.
We are talking about AoE1DE, and the love that he deserves, Iām linking this here because the section dedicated to the rist chapter in this forum hardly receive the attention that deserves, and also partially because itās a bit about the second chapter as well.
To me this is a great project, and it need all the support and attention that we can give, and maybe, the devs will notice it too someday.
If you want to respond donāt do it here, go there and support, or not.
I didnāt said that Iām against it, itās the countrary, I just said that we should verify the math.
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IDK why this turned into Frank trash vs Turk trash but Frank light cav is far from worst, they have 12 HP instead of bloodlines and all other upgrades, better than Teuton scout (1v1 and overall) Malay and Vikings are worse and also better than many civās hussars. Also Elite skirm is more worth than skirms with all upgrades but without the Elite upgrade itself. The regular skirm is not worth anything in imp.
Also Franks have TAxes so they donāt care about trash wars.
Franks light cav is trained fasterā¦ a small plus
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My updated Ideas, post discussion.
Civilizations -
Koreans - Wood bonus extended to -20% (may need to monitor water play).
Turks - Artillery now also makes Scorpions a trash unit. Cost subject to balance requirements. (Heavy Scorpion removed).
Portuguese - Gold Bonus increased to -20%.
Italians - Dock Bonus changed to 20-30-40% in feudal/castle/imp and in exchange get free archer line armor upgrades.
Unit Changes -
Siege tower - -50% cost
Steppe Lancer - cost changed to 65 food and 40g.
attack speed increased to 2.1.
elite upgrade cost changed to 500 food/500g.
Elephant Archer - Increase speed to 0.9
Increase attack speed to 2.1
Elite Gets + 1 Range
Elite Upgrade cost cut to 500 food and 400 gold.
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The only thing I do not agree, is whith changes to the Italians.
As for the Koreans, I think making the Wood discount apply to Siege, even at 15%, would be better than increasing it to 20%.
can i ask what you donāt like about it?
Italians are a decent Water civ, and staggering the discount for an even lesser effect in Imp, would only hurt them. They are the only Water civ that can go against the super Eco of the Vikings as it is.
Even if you give them Free Archer Armour upgrades, this will severely hinder their Water game, and Vikings will become the only competitive Water civ, by a large margin.
No Eco Bonus can compete with Free Handcart and Wheelbarrow + a Ship discount on both resources.
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what if they just got the archer armor line for free then?
Maybe a bit too strong, as they have discounted HCs.
I honestly do not think Italians need anything, right now.
They fit the Water and Hybrid maps, just like Ports fit the Water and Arena maps, and Turks fit the Arena and Gold Pit maps.
I honestly think Italians are fine as is. They even have a huge winrate right now at high level, and are around 49% winrate in all ELOs.
I do not like the winning rate arguments, but they are good on pure water maps only. Islands, if we like statistics is the less played map. So Italians are good in a very specific and rare situation.
Free archer armor is not that big to make them a good land civ, but clearly makes them more enjoyable, give them an identity of armored archers as pavise suggests.
They have zero pick in tournaments outside pure water. Pretty sure that in pro tournaments the picking rate.of Italians and the other civs we mentioned will not change than much. But for noobs like us having as favorite civ ārandomā it will be much better 
You make them stronger late game and weaker early game. What about -20% no siege but siege workshop 50% cheaper? Much better in castle age, worse in imperial where.they do not need that much
i mean, win-rates matter, but the problem is sample size. frankly, its small, which is one of the reasons i think we need more time between balance changes. we need more information to get a better idea of what the issues everyone has. sure feelings can be useful but everyoneās feelings differ. just look at these forums.