Yes, they already got some
Yes
Yes
Yes
Yes, they already got some
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No I would be easily able to tell, as some pros did back then too
because they were basically much faster and tankier Kamayuks while at the same time being spammable from the much much cheaper Stables, while costing nearly the same as the Kamayuks.
And we knew back then that the Kamayuk is a fairly balanced unit.
literally just watched them perform well this weekend.
without reworking elephant units it wonât matter.
sees use, at best need a slight cost reduction.
sees use, they have their niche in siege pushes.
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Not sure if this is irony or not anymore. Are you really saying we should ignore whats actually happening in the games and instead listen to trash talk that is supposed to entertain the stream?
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Konnik is not much better than knight. It is just niche knight that also fight after dismounted. Elite Konnik has just similar stats with Frank Paladin and weaker than Teutonic Paladin. Elite Leitis with relic just win aganist all Paladin.
Keshik has not very good melee combat stats. I see viper play as Tatars playing against Lithuanians and Keshik just easily wrecked by Leitis. Or even it cannot compete with other good Paladin with just 11 base melee attack.
Boyar armor buff is just accompany with movement speed nerf. It is now slower than knight and cannot catchup CA. I think it is good trade-off change. Neither of unit you mentioned are not insanely good in melee fight same as leitis. I think 1 pierce armor is just reasonable nerf. Leitis is still very good aganist other knight civs & infantry+seige civ after nerf.
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so an anti melee unit wrecked melee units. sounds like this is working as intended.
the keshik is also insanely cheap, fast to mass up, and does well vs archers. think of it like a tarkan except it generates gold instead of destroys buildings.
except a lot of infantry civs have arbs, or if they are going infantry its pikes, which leitis isnât that great against, despite what some people think. look at the twitch video i linked above. game 2. so basically the only time youâll see leitis going forward is games that reach imp against civs that rely on heavy cavalry.
if that is good enough for those who wanted leitis nerfed, i want to see parthnan stop complaining about most every unit he complains about.
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Itâs a bit dangerous to go mass archers against the Lithuanians though - their skirmishers are amongst the very best with the extra speed and pierce armor. They still cover the Leitisâs biggest weakness with one of their greatest strengths
I could be wrong but I donât think this will necessarily be a huge nerf when itâs all said and done. I think they will still be viable against a broad range of civs given this
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covering knights with skirms has always been a common occurance.
i donât think they will, how often do we see cataphracts used? and thy perform a lot better against infantry, halbs, and camels then leitis due. even before logistica.
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Yea but in this case, the knights / leitis are being covered by probably arguably the best skirmishers in the game. My point is that your opponent would need to know you are going Leitis, and even then, making arbalests isnât super obvious given how strong the skirms are
Iâve actually seen some use of the catas in pro grames recently but I hear you there. I think what makes the Leitis more useful is how much less gold they cost but we will see what happens after the change
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yeah? how well does byzantine cheap as crap skirms cover for the cataphract?
yeah leitis are cheaper, but cataphracts are more resistant to their natural counters, and attack much faster.
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I donât disagree. They are working as intended and their melee strength will not change after nerf.
Yeah. I agree with it. But I just want to point out that Keshik and Leitis has different role and FurtherLimeâs comparison is flawed in that point.
Yeah. I also in line with UncannyPlayerâs opinion. People just overly dramatic about leitis lose 1PA. It does not change their melee combat strength and just more vulnerable to archer. It is nerf to the one of the best UU, the downside is that we will see Leitis less often but I think it is good for overall game balance. And lithuanians will perfectly fine with +2relic Paladin and tower shield skirms in late game. Also leitis still have nice role against broad range of civ that have not great archers. I also could be wrong but just see how it works.
By the way, I think Cataphracts became fairly good option for Byzantines after cost reduction. Pros used them in Arabia invitational tournament. Just we cannot see that unit often because Byzantines were not chosen often like Lithuanians.
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Pretty well potentially - hereâs one where Viper uses catas and skirms against the Mayans which is 1 of the 2 best archer civs. Look I am not saying that this is not a nerf to the Leitis, but there is some precedent like the below that units with weaknesses can still be used against civs are particularly strong at exploiting those weaknesses
I mean building catas against mayans is theoretically the worst matchup for them but Byz skirms sucessfully push the arbs away
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and when those cataphracts got close to the arbs they utterly melted, so that doesnât really inspire confidence imho.
Is there an official confirmation that Leitis are going to be nerfed?
I appreciate the efforts of @SwaggyOP, @MatCauthon3 who tried to explain why Leitis and other cavalry unique units are very situational and not OP like some other unique units. I agree with you guys that its unnecessary to nerf niche units like Leitis. I guess at lower elos, players love civs like Teuuuuutons, Goths a lot for some reason and Leitis spoils their fun with teuuuuuutonic knights or other infantry. And hence according to them Leitis is OP and has to be nerfed.
Given that the units like Boyars, Konniks, Leitis are mostly seen at their level, its probably fine if devs nerf these niche units to cater to their needs, instead of spoiling Lithuanians as a civ by nerfing something else.
No dude. Hera made them once and it was vs Daut as Incas doing all-in eagles push. Maybe good for 4v4 Arena or closed maps, at a non-competitive level.
Its Viper vs Capoch, not Mr.Yo, Liereyy or Hera. He has won ranked games against top-10 players by making organ guns too. Doesnât mean organ guns are Op. Capoch is a legend, but currently heâs not a top-10 player in a generic setting (maybe a top-10 in specific maps like Four lakes) and Viper winning against him in a ranked game doesnât mean Catas are usable. In an uneven matchup, yes, you can use Catas, nerfed Leitis or anything like that along with skirms against the weaker opponent and have fun. In tournaments you wonât see these units as often as popular unique units like Plumed archers, chu ko nus, Mangudais or Arambais.
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honestly this nerf kind of makes me laugh honestly. yes i think its an overnerf to the leitis, they would have been better served with increasing its gold cost or something like that. as has been pointed out there are other unique units that see more use then the leitis does (plumes, ckn, kipchaks, arambai, and mangudai are all easy ones that come to mind).
but what makes this hilarious is that a lot of the people happy to see this unit nerfed are also the ones crying for more diversity in the meta today, and yet here they are, happy this unit which only really sees use in the imperial age, occasionally, is getting nerfed. this reduces diversity in the meta, forcing Lithuanians further into the Knight meta then they already are.
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Dude Capoch is like a Top 25 player and Viper played catas directly into probably their theoretically worst matchup. He showed you can do it by using their skirm strength to push back the Mayan arbalests. Viper is not as dominant as he used to be - he is still the best but itâs not like he was at his peak.
If your logic is that we canât learn anything from Viper if he isnât playing a top 5 player than I think you are mistaken. In no place in that game was it clear that he was goofing off or playing around. He was playing to win - if he was messing around he wouldve made onagers or something not mass skrims against Mayans
OMG. I thought the marathon would go a bit better. Turns out it is getting even worse, even introducing 15min slow mode to it. Idk, maybe the whole thread will be closed later on?
At this point, just theoretical crafting and some random scenario editor testing will NOT be able to solve any problem or settle any argument. I wish someone can come and make a balance test mod with all of those outlandish demands. Then, find a bunch of good players (1600+ elo) to play with those. Let the winrate, civ pick rate etc speak for themselves.
And can I say there are now two camps arguing balance changes in these threads?
So, lets revert the camel âshipâ classification to make them completely useless when raiding the town while giving them -2/-2 and let pikes do extra 10 damage to them. Letâs see how many Indian players would still build camels.
I wish there is a balance mod to test out how outlandish and ridiculous you guys balance demands are.
Thatâs interesting. Why Pro does not build a unit that is âinsaneâ? How do you explain this? Should Pro always build that insane unit whenever possible?
Because cataphract IS insane on paper thanks to their resistance to anti-cavalry damage. So against units, they could be very good. However, the castle requirement, elite upgrade, logistica and high cost stops people from properly fielding them. If knights can do what cataphract would do without all the upgrade cost, can be massed easily, and have decent mobility, why build cataphracts over knights in castle age?
You know if someone quotes your post it can still be seen by other people right? Unless mod deletes it or the one who replies your post deletes ur post.
Neither just because you call it out.
Then why buff them? Why every singe unit has to be useful all the time? Do I have to use all screwdrivers in my toolbox all the time whenever I am doing something? No, I will use those common ones and every other is for occasional use. This is how it works irl, so it will work in AOE2.
I doubt that is what MatCauthon wants to say. Even so, he would agree those changes that are deemed necessary by the community as a whole, not by a handful of $^%&&$.
I want to repeat this again: blame the meta, not those units. Meta dictates whether units are useful and how they are used. It is true that sometimes dev wants to tweak units to shake the meta a bit and introduce new ways to play the game, but Meta and unit change evolve alongside each other.
This is a giant post to everything I have read so far
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So if the pros donât agree with you, what they say doesnât matter anymore? You are contradicting yourself.
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I didnât say you canât learn anything from Viper when heâs playing against someone against top 5. When he plays against a much weaker opponent heâs able to win with strategies and unit choices which are far more difficult to win with in an even matchup. Like he might do just organ guns and win against 2100-2200 players fairly often but on an average that might not work against better players. (Iâve mentioned on an average to clarify that its not impossible to win with such units but quite difficult. So please donât bring a clip or YouTube link of him winning with organ guns against a top player)
Some units and combos are viable to use when playing against weaker opponents but are harder to get to, while playing opponents who are at same level as you are. They become very situational and good only under some circumstances, like a specific map or against few civs.
Its not about the pros disagreeing with me. They agree with me. THEY DONT CREATE LEITIS. Thats the point. If money is on the line, they heavily agree Leitis are not worth building. Or why would you assume they dont use it in tournaments?
Yeah, they might have said good stuff about the leitis in their streams. But Viper also claimed that deleting Konniks before running into pikes is a smart play - just for the lulz. You have to understand that when players stream, they want to entertain. When they play tournaments, they play seriously. Therefor, we should take into account what actually happens in the games and ignore or at least very carefully approach any statment that was made outside of the game.
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