If nerfs are prioritized for auto-generated houses, but it is difficult to precede them, first limit the settlers. Japan has a settler limit of 75. Why do Sweden and the Incas still have the 99 limit?
11 Likes
I have to agree with lowering sweden villigers count. Once you get past the 70 villigers count, there is literally no way you can lose. You can rebuild your army very easy.
2 Likes
Agreed that sweden and inca vill limit need nerf.
Dutch got less vills coz Banks
Japan less vills coz shrines.
Sweden just why…
Inca especially WHY coz they also have lamas at the community plaza…
A vill limit of 60 would be fine for them.
4 Likes
I agree. Civs that have Gatherer-Houses, should have lower Settler limits. I would even go so far as limit Swedes, Incas and Japanese to 70 Vills, if not straight out 50, like the Dutch.
At least the Dutch have to build expensive Banks, that also cost Food. Japanese, Incas and Swedes get nice, affordable Houses that skyrocket their Economy.
6 Likes
I wonder, why not just make torp act like banks ? They are eco building, but don’t give any population.
So swede will need to make house too, they would be way less op.
Because most of the problems is Sweden being too strong first 15 minutes, so wayyy before they hit 75 vills.
Because taht would just be copying the Dutch, and at taht point, there is no point to even have Swedes in the game.
Torps are not the issue, it is that they are so affordable and that Swedes can have their 99 Vills on top of them, that is the issue.
Nah, something like 90% of games end before sweden even cross 50-60 vills. The problem is their incredible eco middle game, not their normal late game.
2 Likes
By the time you get even close to max vill pop your torps will have run out of gold and blueberries, and even though blackberries have a lot of food and can be shipped twice, they still gather way slower than a villager.
Yes, Sweden can ship mines, they will keep sweden going but these will eventually deplete as well.
Eventually sweden torps will become less relevant the longer the game goes.
Reasonable nerfs for sweden could be replacing 100w for 100f crates and not allowing torps from gathering from 2 bushes at once.
Maybe dominions card could be nerfed by removing hp increase too.
Generating houses are stupid and I posted on Nov last year already, obviously dev doesn’t consider this is a problem.
Dev is just showing they were giving up this game.
Not really. A 2-3 TC boom in age3 will ensure you hit the villiger cap about the time you hit industrial, assuming constant villigers production from all TC
Your gold will be gone,but wood and food not. Blackberries would be around 2/3 of their first card.
So you have 80-90 villigers plus the torps gathering wood and food.
1 Like
I agree, it’s weird that the Inca basically get cheaper food-banks that double as houses and then not get a lower settler limit. It feels like a major oversight. A lower settler limit seems like the right thing to do. How much villager worth of food do the max number of houses gather?
The Swedes are harder though. Torps while very strong also run out of rescources eventually, a lower settler limit will do nothing to nerf them in regular 1v1 games since those are mostly over long before the settler limit is in sight. In longer games, like treaty games. Sweden with a lower settler limit will just be a regular civ with les settlers in the endgame.
Suggested changes to Sweden (Torps mostly)
-Reduced settler limit to X? Needs calculating.
-Torps no longer gather coin from mines.
-Dominions no longer increases Torp HP
-Engelberg Ironworks now allows Torps gathering from mines at the original rate.(Move to age I?)
-To make up for the reduced settler limit, Blackberries is now an infinite card.
Torps gathering from mines is not that effective anymore.
Most Swedish players now put most of their torps on wood because it gathers from up to 5 trees and is far more efficient that way as you can have the most vills gathering from coins while torps gather from trees and blueberries.
I would only remove the ability to gather from 2 berries at the same time as you can ship blackberries after blueberries and the food gathering rate is insane
1 Like
Torps should be assigned to one resource, not automatically gather from anything around them. This is insane.
Also, Inca and late-game Swedes are overlooked in balancing discussions. Not because they are not OP but because early-mid-game Swedes has attracted all the hate. If this got fixed (thank god) and then Inca and late-game Swedes will be on the table.
2 Likes
Well, they shouldn’t be. if left unchecked, Sweden can get the 99 villager cap much sooner due to torps gathering extra food and wood. They are one of the few civs that can comfortably boom of 3 TC in the fortress age without investing much into food.
Most torps will still be gathering wood very late into the game. This essentially means late game Sweden has 99 villagers + Torps equivalent to 8-9 villagers on wood + 2 factories. This means sweden can easily afford to replace losses of their expensive units and rebuild waves of fully upgrades Caroleans, which are still very ridiculous. Throw in the very effective artillery population wise, and there you are.
The obvious solution for Sweden is to prevent the torps from gathering multiple resources at once.
Inca is nowhere near that. While they can get 99 villagers + 13 houses, they are limited by the high wood costs of their units and also by the fact that they can’t cover 200 population with houses only, so their boom is not as steep as Sweden’s. They surely need nerfs, just not as much as Sweden.
2 Likes
Unless you’re continually sending berry cards, by late game, torps are likely not gathering resources (unless you delete and rebuild them near trees continuously). I don’t think putting torps into the max vill count accomplishes anything as their eco is stronger mid game, not at the end, and the max vill cap only addresses late game.
They still have additional “villagers” and can be continually replenished for quite a long time.
But yes the problem is like previous nerfs to caroleans — it’s not that other Swedish strategies are not OP, but that one unit is so OP that the rest are not even explored. If they manage to nerf the Swedish mid game economy then the community will start to talk about the late game.
I think the economy for every civ should be raidable. If not, they need huge investments like Dutch. Getting a stable economy as a by-product of building houses, which is an essential part in early-mid-game, is absurd and very difficult to balance.
Early-mid-game economy is indeed a more important consideration in balancing of course. Japan late-game economy is not that OP due to lower vil limit and lack of factories, but they are super annoying in early & mid game. Sweden feels like an even more annoying version of Japan with even stronger late-game (but again, this is overlooked because the early-mid-game is already OP enough).
Back to balancing resource-generating houses: what about they stop gathering when attacked or damaged? Villagers when raided need to escape and stop gathering, while houses can just sit there and continue to gather.
1 Like
This is probably gonna sound like a bad idea anyway, but what if houses stop generating ressources while being sieged, and carry on generating ressources once they are not under attack.
That could be a way to fix the raiding problem.
It would just leadt to annoying gameplay, where the opponent player just constantly has 1 unit sieging every Torp/Shrine all the time, and completely negates the resource generation entirely.
As creative as it is, it achieves the opposite result, and would make Torps and Shrines underpowered instead, as they would just constantly be forced into being just more expensive Houses.
Torps need another big nerf. Now that people realized setting up torps next to trees is strong aswell, Torps can be hidden anywhere on the map.
Blueberries + Blackberries in insane economy that has to get nerfed ASAP. Even Drongo admitted it on the day of the last patch already, but last weak we got no balance changes at all.
The Dominion card needs a nerf. Torps have almost 2000 hitpoints which is way too much. You have to go out of your way to stop swedish torp boom by sending pikemen, investing into Age 2 and pull out all stops, just to have a chance against Sweden.
Torps pay for themselves way too quickly even after the recent nerfs, they are too cheap and build too quickly.
But not only that, Leather cannons and especially Infantry guns are absurdly overpowered. The Infantry gun card must get moved from Age 3 to Age 4 ASAP.
Infantry guns can be upgraded via the Arsenal. By the way, Sweden gets an advanced arsenal, that means Sweden has 26 cards in their deck and starts the game with 1 shipment more than all other civs. This needs to be changed, there is no justification for this.